Comments on: Amlin Challenge Cup 2013/2014 Preview: Pools 3-5

By: Staggy

Staggy — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 13:04:56 +0000

My view, as stated above, is that there should be balance. You want the best teams playing, but also a decent spread of nations. There is never going to be a correct answer to this as it is all about compromise. This is something that has obviously been in short supply (from all sides Brighty and it isn’t just Cockers and the PRL who have talked a load of bilge, although they have been probably the two loudest I accept).

How to get that compromise is the nub of the argument. How do you assess the relative merits of each league and then how do you continually assess the strengths as countries leagues will go up and down over a period of time. When the HC was started, it seems as though the Celtic nations had the upper hand and the strength in negotiations, now it would appear to be with the Anglo/French axis. In 5 years time it might have reverted back, and in 15 years time the Latin countries might be bigger players – who knows!

The problem is exasperated by the fact that the clubs only really care about relatively short term financial gain, and the spreading of the game is more the responsibility of the IRB and it’s member unions. However the unions then have a responsibility to the clubs as the clubs produce the players for the national teams, and matters are reversed as additional funding for the clubs comes from the unions. And the clubs can’t operate without the sanction ultimately of the IRB.

Therefore no black and white answer to this solution, only a compromise which will work for a while before becoming outdated.

Given the personalities involved, I think that I’ve just depressed myself – rugby doesn’t generally breed people to accept compromise on the pitch and this attitude is often then taken on into the administration of the game.

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:20:19 +0000

I can see my comment makes it look like that but honestly I don’t think that. As a fan of the only Welsh team to have ever won a Euro cup I value the Amlin highly. I’d still rather be competing for the HC though.

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:12:28 +0000

“why should a Spanish club play in this comp, when the likes of Hawick, Cork Constutution or Neath do not?” – This is a really good question and is at the heart of a lot of the debate about the HC and the Rugby Champions Cup.

Cockerill himself said recently – why all the fuss if Leinster don’t make it into the RCC when teams like Bath also might not? Also we all know the focus on the Italian teams as part of the argument for needing to shake things up.

I don’t think there is a simple answer for two conflicting targets – a European cup of meritocracy. You can only go so far with each one. The PRL bleat on about the lack of meritocracy in the Rabo representation but there is no perfect solution for this. Once you decide “X from each league” or “X from each country” then you immediately have issues where team 7 (to use the top 6 from each league plan) in France could quite possibly be better than team 6 from the Rabo. This is why I detest this part of their argument as their proposal merely moves where the cutoff is; it doesn’t “fix” the problem they are complaining about so it’s just, in my opinion, a smokescreen to redistribute the wealth.

I come down more strongly on the side of “Euro” than “merit”. I am really going to miss the Italian clubs being in the top comp (probably, we all know they probably won’t get in) as it removes a country from the top comp. We’ll probably remove two countries (Scotland or Wales have a chance of not getting into Top 6 in Rabo) and the comp will be “more intense”, more “meritocratic” but, in my opinion, duller.

By: Jacob

Jacob — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:10:09 +0000

Ah I see, apologies the humour was lost on me!

I do agree with you; different clubs will always put focus on different areas and there shouldn’t be an issue with that.

The one thing I would say if the views on the Amlin. Then I say I’d rather Wasps focus on the Amlin, it wasn’t because I want to use it as a way to qualify for the Heineken (if the tournament exists), but because I’ve missed watching Wasps have a good European Cup run the last few years!

Your comment (and many from Celtic league fans), highlights the difference in the respect for the Amlin. To you, it is “a better vehicle for top flight Euro rugby next season than getting into the top 6.” (sorry to quote you but the wording made sense). To me, it’s a European competition in its own right that I’d like my club to do well in!

By: Blub

Blub — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:04:56 +0000

Given the strength of the game in countries like Portugal, Spain and Romania, I rather think that composite teams (such as Lusitanos) should be the norm at this stage.

It is, after all, the way it works in all highly developed Rugby countries (excepting England and France).

If you think about it, why should a Spanish club play in this comp, when the likes of Hawick, Cork Constutution or Neath do not?

This is not a criticism of franchises by the way – it just seems to me that the lower level european game (of which I am a great supporter) is missing a trick here.

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:01:37 +0000

Balls, even that reads badly. I meant me, not you.

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 10:01:09 +0000

Old, weary and cynical Jamie.

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:59:43 +0000

“I’d say it’s a valid point” I meant your point was a valid point. My point was a delib attempt to use humour (sarcasm) to highlight the disparity between what you are saying (which again, I agree with) and what a lot of the English establishment (and some of the fans) try and tell us Celts i.e. that we’re the only ones who can afford a “cup only” focus. The humour failed, I get that a lot.

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:57:51 +0000

It was a delib facetious and sarcastic comment. I know what you meant – I’d say it’s a valid point. There will always be solid 7th/8th/9th placed sides in a league who may look at something like the Amlin and see it as a better vehicle for top flight Euro rugby next season than getting into the top 6. I have no issue with this – it’s just that with some of the bilge coming out of England recently (Cockerill, PRL, etc.) you’d swear that no English team would ever be in such a position yet us Celts are all sunning ourselves on tropical paradises until the HC comes round.

By: Jamie

Jamie — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:52:11 +0000

How cynical of you Brighty – that’s most unlike you.

By: Jacob

Jacob — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:50:55 +0000

This really wasn’t an attempt to start a debate on the relative strengths on any of the leagues Brighty.

All I am suggesting is, Wasps are more likely (I am hoping) to put more focus on the Amlin than the French sides. That makes me a little more confident that we will get through this group. We also beat Bayonne quite comfortably in recent seasons.

Did I mention the Celtic league once in my original comment? Not sure why you’ve jumped on that…

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:44:59 +0000

Why Jacob, you’re almost suggesting that Wasps can cruise a little through the league as they won’t get relegated yet won’t be challengers, so can concentrate on the cup. Surely that’s not possible in the most competitive league in the world, only us lazy arsed Celts can skip through the league and hence put all our rested and best players into the HC?