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Hi guys – it’s been a while and appreciate there is limited conversational subjects but just wondered if you could start a few threads around some current talking points such as the global calendar, Burgess’s rant on Ford Senior and Junior or even just a few ‘what ifs’ for the banter??

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Hi DM. I’m so glad to see the Rugby blog up and running again. I sincerely hope that all contributors are well and that we can all find a little time to post some food for thought.

I will start…Tuilagi? Is this a case of two fingers to a club that fully paid him and supported him through several seasons of which much was on the sidelines yet suddenly he is asked to take a pay cut and he has a short memory? Or do we think he was going to go anyway given 2019 was realistically his last chance of World Cup glory with England so France(?) was always on the cards given the dire season Leicester had?

It’s complicated!
On one hand I can see why Tuilagi’s apparent desire to up sticks has angered the club and fans,especially, as you say,given they have stood by him through some pretty dire times injury wise.
Having said that,he may feel that he’s approaching the twilight of his career and needs the excitement of one last new challenge before retirement.
He also needs to consider his red rode status too, unless he’s not that bothered anymore.
I would like to think it isn’t all about money (again) but since Sarrygate,it’s hard not to wonder.

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Yeah didn’t consider that he might need a new lease of motivation – suppose only human really. No different to your average Joe wanting to change jobs after 5/6 years for a new challenge, not always about money…well within reason.

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Talking of sarrygate, I think allowing them to loan players for a year is wrong. They should either have to retain them in the squad or loose them. To me it feels like they are escaping half the punishment.

Yeah can see your point here, they are just off-loading chunks of their wage bill. That said if they plan to secure promotion (likely) and take the playerd back surely back in the same situ unless players take a cut to return?
Tuilagi has signed for Sale….I didn’t expect that, expected him to move aborad and cash in. Maybe he has unfinished business in the Red Rose shirt!

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Yes, looks like we can expect to see him scattering the opposition in a Red Rose shirt a while longer.
Wonder what Umbro will come up with kit wise?

Yeah wasn’t sure about this one.

I would say the punishment is being relegated from the Prem and receiving a hefty fine. I don’t think they should have to jettison some of their talent, specifically the ones they have nurtured through the academy; I always took issue with that complaint from oppo clubs/supporters and it always struck me as jealously.

They have gotten rid of a few player – Kruis most notably – but it will be interesting to see how they cut the cloth going forward.

The world of rugby is giving us plenty to discuss right now it seems: The Lions, a revised AI schedule and format, Sarries keeping hold of key players and Eddie’s continuing preference for Southern Hemisphere back rowers over the home grown variety………………

Okay so are we going to get a bit more chat up and running now? I see Gabriel Ibitoye has left Quins for Agen. Bit gutted about that as I felt he was showing some real promise and could have been on the radar for England at some point if he kept up his form for another season. Suspect it’s a money move given Agen were struggling in the French league?? Maybe he was already on an average wage at Quins and taking a further cut wasn’t that motivating! Suppose he is still young so could do a couple of seasons in France and come back a better player?

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Yes, just saw that on BBC Rugby site. It’s a weird one. I don’t know a lot about Agen as a club,I assume they must have some sort of attraction for a young player that has a lot of potential?

How is everyone coping with rugby officially back? I see Jack Clifford has had to retire at 27, realy shame he had great potential but just littered with injuries when it really started to matter.

Yeah really gutted for him. Quality all-round backrow who seemed to be breaking into the England setup before injury hit.

The talent England have at backrow is scary though; Currys and Willis picking up where they left off, Vunipola rediscovering some form. Think Underhill has been below par and Dombrandt needs to show why he deserves a shot with England – not seen enough yet imo.

Agree some real quality in the back row, so hopefully we will no longer see Itoje or Lawes plonked in at 6/7….subject to players keeping fit. I don’t think Underhill has been below par and he is playing his part in a Bath pack that has really improved. He does his job and can often go unoticed as he is not so much of a flare player. Agree on Dombrandt…he is a lively chap but can often make several basic errors and can try too much at times. Hopefully with experience this will lessen.

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I must admit, I didn’t mind seeing Itoje or Lawes line up at 6 if we had the other partnering Kruis at lock. Our best position in terms of depth was lock so I can see the need to have 3 of them in the line up. I dont think it’s as necessary now though.

You’re probably right with Underhill, just used to him scything people down every other minute. Mercer has been immense for Bath this season so think he’s probably gone ahead of Dombrandt in the no. 8 pecking order – both behind BV of course.

To another contested position for England – who takes the 3rd 10 slot in a tournament squad behind Ford and Farrell?

Funny you mention Underhill scything people down – he was smashing a few Goucester players ribs last night! He actually looked very active last night, few good runs, some good clearouts. I’d like to see him look for space a bit more as he has got gas over 50 yards, but he just likes to get stuck into the breakdown and hammer people!

No 10 well I suppose stats would say Simmonds deserves a shot, followed by Smith @ Quins or even Jacob Umaga as a wild card who seems to be showing real promise. Either way the time will come soon where we need to give some game time to some younger lads at the top level, even if a couple of 20/30min stints in the ‘friendlies’….

Loads! Eddie’s second consultancy role, Exeter seemingly unstoppable, the revised format AI’s, SA joining the six nations,the return of spectators to HQ,……………..Take your pick!

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Ha ha – I meant on when TRB would be back, but I think that you knew that. I think that Farrell would have been a hot topic over the last few days

Err, the last articles on here are all March. Unless my computer is playing up, TRB really doesn’t look like it is back yet, despite a couple of comments on this home page.

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Not sure I’ll get a response but what are people’s feelings towards the postponement of Sale v Worcester? 16 players at Sale test positive for Covid yet they’re allowed to postpone the match instead of forfeit. Similarly, Northampton have had to forfeit their gane against Gloucester.

Under the Covid guidelines, a team unable to fulfil a match due to Covid outbreak has to forfeit. This surely means Sale have to forfeit?

I think like COVID-19 across the world the rules are made up, or tweaked as the powers that be feel best suits them! Their 16 players are not going to be cleared by Weds, and in fact surely the whole team should be isolating now? All a bit strange and not consistent.

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I must admnit with COVID-19, the sarries scandal and Exeter pretty much in a league of their own I haven’t paid much attention to some of the upcoming players and not familiar with some of EJs uncapped choices. That said with several players not available due to league commitments no real suprise the squad looks like it does. No doubt will look very different nearer the time of the AIs

Agreed, I think this trg squad is nothing like the one we will see in a few weeks, although it will be interesting to see some of these in the barbarians game. Always a good chance to have a look at some new faces. Looking forward to the the AIs! Hope TRB gets back up running again soon.

So what’s people’s thoughts on the semi finals? Personally I can only see one winner at Sandy Park. Whilst Bath have enjoyed an excellent resurgence on the reopening of the season, I think they may have blown their load and mentally I don’t think they have the metal to grind it out away to Exeter. The other game poses an interesting tustle. Both free flowing sides and both enjoying their rugby. Pat Lam has his set of players well bonded and I have a feeling they will nick this one.

On another note I think Exeter could drop the ball on one of the two finals (assuming they get past Bath) as they now have three tough knock out games on the spin each weekend. It’s going to be tough on the players….if I was a betting man I would go for a real battle of a win over Racing and then they cough up the prem against a rested Bristol.

Happy Sunday all. So thoughts on the semi finals? I was left underwhelmed from a neutrals selfish point of view; I did’t expect Bath to keep up with Exeter for the whole 80mins but come half time I just felt Bath were well off the pace even with the scoreline not ness reflecting an inevitable deafeat at 14-6. If it was a boxing match it would have been stopped at around 60mins!

Wasps/Bristol reality was it was done at half time at 23-5. Whilst Bristol did put up a better fight than Bath and even when there was a glimmer of a comeback you just knew Wasps had more tries in them so the deficit was just too big. Did feel Wasps got a few decisions swing their way. Willis was immense and his try saving tackle was a punch in the guts that really hurt Bristol.

What do people think about the Robson sniper try off the penalty when the ref was still explaining the decision to the players who were caught off guard? Should have been pulled back or play on??

It was underwhelming imo as well, though I think going into the games there were two clear favourites so maybe not a surprise.
Bath started well but couldnt get through the Exeter defensive line and then errors started to show. On that showing though, I don’t think Exeter will win either final. I think the Racing game will be close, but I think Russel et al will have enough to score the tries.

As you stated, and as pointed out by commentary, there were a few key infringements missed with one leading to a Wasps try.

The Robson try was poor reffing 101 imo; I appreciate that players need to get up and reset in defence when penalised, but if the referee is lecturing half of your players, who happen to be in a tangle on the ground, I hardly think its fair to allow a quick tap. Do players just completely ignore the ref going forward? The tap wasnt even taken in the spot the penalty was awarded – Carley’s field of vision – it was taken behind him – which is normally another reason for it to be pulled back.

Having listened to Eggchasers podcast, which had JP Doyle speaking on it, I can understand why it was allowed to go on. To paraphrase, the laws state that a penalty can be taken within a metre radius of the infringement, so the spot Robson took the tap was fine.

The contentious part comes from whether or not it was Bristol who engaged Carley, or Carley who engaged Bristol, in dialogue. If the former, then Wasps shouldnt be impeded in taking a penalty quickly because Bristol want to talk to the referee regarding a decision (this should be done when the ball is dead, by the captain). If the latter however, then Carley shouldn’t allow Wasps to play on if he is the reason Bristol are engaged in discussions/remonstrations. JP says this is the grey area where you can decide for yourself.

Not sure I agree 100% with whether it should have been allowed to stand, mainly because we see quick tap penalties brought back all the time for not being taken in front of the referee. If this isn’t actually a requirement, then why is it bein refereed inconsistently.

Harping back to Wales v England August 2019, and the quick tap whilst England were making a substitution. This clearly shouldnt have been allowed to stand (in my biased opinion).

What’s everyone thought on Spencer being omitted from trg squad? I’m not surprised but still don’t understand EJ selection process!?!

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Was he not included as he was playing in SF? Maybe I imagined that but I am sure I read somewhere that there were several players unavailble for the training squad due to premership commitments?

Either way I think he derserves a shot he has been a stand out player for Bath and I really like how he handles himself in the big games, very calm and collected.

Glad to see Exeter lift the cup!

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Re Fast Ed’s training squad, why Kerrod and Ribbans? It seems EJ just can’t NOT pick players with SH backgrounds.
As already stated by others the S/half situation gets dafter by the minute.

No DM, 6/7 other Bath players have now been added to the squad.

Same feeling as Stu: not surprised but dont understand it. Spencer and Robson were the two standout 9’s this season (although Robson obvs tied up with Prem final for the time being) so I can’t see why EJ continues to select BY and a bolter.

Does anyone else think that there has to be serious conversations around Italy remaining in the 6N? Absolute whipping boys and it’s just simply how many points can a team put on them.

I agree that it should be considered. It’s been so many years and it is still considered everyone’s points booster game.

The issue arises when considering replacements. The Scotland v Georgia game was a woeful spectacle, IMO as a neutral, and that’s nothing against Scotland. Georgia are far less organised and looked more out place than Italy did v Ireland. Maybe a play-off v the winner of the 2nd tier European tournament?

I am personally opposed to the idea of SA joining the 6N. Not only would the away fixture in SA be a nightmare for any fans to attend, there is simply no tradition between SA and any of the 6N teams. What makes 6N great is the tradition, the local rivalries, the history.

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I’d like to see it just go back to 5 nations for a period until another European team can show some promise to compete. I know it’s catch 22 as they need the competitive games – but you could argue that this has not done Italy any good for 5/6 years now! Completely agree about SA – it would take away tradition and also probably dilute the RWC as part of the draw is SH only get to play NH teams ‘competitively’ once every four years (excluding the Lions)….it’s just wrong on the fans aswell (assuming at some piont attendance at games is back to some level of normal).

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Yeah 5 Nations could be the way. The players union says that there are too many games, so surely the 5 nations could be player over 5 straight weeks, leaving weeks off for rest. The rest of the teams, Scotland included, are normally very competitive.

100%, the intrigue around SH v NH would diminish. I’m a big fan of the summer tours but, with the autumn tours as well, maybe there are too many fixtures between SH and NH each year as it is. I would also like to see club teams being able to field full strength teams more often, so much of the season is weakened squads because of international commitment. It’s very frustrating seeing my club side put out teams without the star players.

I think a single set of NH and SH fixtures, either a single summer tour or a set of autumn fixtures would keep the allure of the NH v SH fixtures.

What, exactly, do people want?
Certain of us are TRYING to discuss the game so what is the issue?
We can’t turn back the clock or alter the current situation so why not make a constructive suggestion rather than mentally shrugging the shoulders and walking away?
I’m being serious not attacking Matt or anyone else. Speak your minds and we may be able to come up with a plan.

I would like to see the return of articles and opinion pieces to centre discussions and topics of interest. IMO what we are doing now is just hijacking a URL for random discussion…prob what we did before but was well run, well written pieces that we could choose to make input against.

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Dont worry Stu, Acee is being dense. It’s obvious that everyone would like some articles or opinion pieces from Hutch and the other guys at TRB. Conversation amongst ourselves is all well and good but it just doesnt feel the same.

Do you know something we dont Acee about the blog? Genuinely asking when the blog will return in full is a valid question.

I think just undercooked; had the game been at the end of the tournament in a normal year, I think they’d have been firing. We still scored some nice tries but it wasn’t as emphatic as it should’ve been. That being said, Ireland put 50 on Italy (though conceded more than we did).

I didn’t particularly like the gameplan – I can appreciate the need to play in the right areas and to pressure Italy but it feels like most other teams will let their back-3s attack when the kick chase is as poor as it was today. We have such pace at the back and we never seem to utilise it.

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I think you can blame being ‘undercooked’ to a degree, but let’s be honest that was a pretty shoddy and laboured performance. Considering the 6N could have come down to points difference, I really didn’t get the 1 million kick and chase tactics. I wonder if Eddie just doesn’t have faith in our backs ability to run the ball – and I can often see why at times……I will explain.

So Ugo Monye was nearly having an orgasm on the BBC podcast when he was naming the players in our backline – it even made my heart beat rapidly when he was talking them up and about how much pace we have. And to be fair for the past 3/4 years I have always got excited by our backs ‘on paper’ and the pace….BUT what is the point of having several players who can probably clock 100m in 10/12 secs if some of the basics are not there! Too often (and not just yesterday) our passing is either too high/low or behind a player and this immediately halts any attack. We still don’t draw and pass well and often players run sideways until your winger is literally on the touchline with nowhere to run when he finally gets the ball – this is basic level stuff! Simply for all the pace we have we still lack guile.

Jonny May seemed to be the only player who wanted to run the ball from deep, and when he did the others just seemed to freeze rather than getting on his shoulder.

Slade should not play at 12, and we seriously need to unearth some talent at 12 and 13 (not saying Slade is to be dropped but he can be prone to the odd injury so we need backup).

I love the way the pundits also try to sugar coat things saying at halftime ‘well Italy are playing well’. NO NO NO they were not playing well and they are a crap side. They had no crowd to gee them up, and the week before had 50 points put on them.

I’m pleased we won the 6N, but it was not a pretty tournament for England IMO and again we have blown hot and cold.

On a more positive note, I thought our pack looked good and wow some of those tackles going in from Curry and Underhill OUCH. I recall there was one where they doubled up on some guy – looked like someone literally swung a sledgehammer at his legs.

Probably too generous on my part but, given most of those players havent played any competitive rugby for 2 – 3 weeks (and some even longer), I think playing a few more games to become more familiar with each other wouldve lead to a marked improvement.

I agree with you though on the backline – for years now pundits (I do this too tbh) have been purring over this backline and yet they haven’t lived up to expectations. They should, in my mind, be scything through teams with silky handling but this only tends to come from set piece strike moves, not from open play. In open play we, more often than not, either kick the crap out of the ball to compete, meaning we never get to see successive phases with running, heads up rugby, or we crab across the field and kill the space for the outside backs. Genuinely think Ollie Lawrence could be the answer to this; he’s very abrasive and direct and would compliment JJ/Slade/Daly.

When getting good forward ball the players have the ability to capitalise on the slower defensive line, but it always seems like other teams are able to attack more effectively with their backs. I know we dont have players like Dupont or Ntamack but with the talent available we should be doing better.

Forwards were very good imo. Underhill and Curry showing why theyre the No. 1 choice and Earl coming off the bench and playing very well.

Not sure why Furbank played and Watson went to the wing; not really convinced by Furbank at international level and just seems a waste of Watson’s talent shifting over to accommodate him. Would have preferred Cockanisiga to play to be honest.

I think you can blame being ‘undercooked’ to a degree, but let’s be honest that was a pretty shoddy and laboured performance. Considering the 6N could have come down to points difference, I really didn’t get the 1 million kick and chase tactics. I wonder if Eddie just doesn’t have faith in our backs ability to run the ball – and I can often see why at times……I will explain.

So Ugo Monye was nearly having an orgasm on the BBC podcast when he was naming the players in our backline – it even made my heart beat rapidly when he was talking them up and about how much pace we have. And to be fair for the past 3/4 years I have always got excited by our backs ‘on paper’ and the pace….BUT what is the point of having several players who can probably clock 100m in 10/12 secs if some of the basics are not there! Too often (and not just yesterday) our passing is either too high/low or behind a player and this immediately halts any attack. We still don’t draw and pass well and often players run sideways until your winger is literally on the touchline with nowhere to run when he finally gets the ball – this is basic level stuff! Simply for all the pace we have we still lack guile.

Jonny May seemed to be the only player who wanted to run the ball from deep, and when he did the others just seemed to freeze rather than getting on his shoulder.

Slade should not play at 12, and we seriously need to unearth some talent at 12 and 13 (not saying Slade is to be dropped but he can be prone to the odd injury so we need backup).

I love the way the pundits also try to sugar coat things saying at halftime ‘well Italy are playing well’. NO NO NO they were not playing well and they are a crap side. They had no crowd to gee them up, and the week before had 50 points put on them.

I’m pleased we won the 6N, but it was not a pretty tournament for England IMO and again we have blown hot and cold.

On a more positive note, I thought our pack looked good and wow some of those tackles going in from Curry and Underhill OUCH. I recall there was one where they doubled up on some guy – looked like someone literally swung a sledgehammer at his legs.

I have some issues with the pack.
Sinckler is playing on past reputation at the moment. To me, he hasn’t been the same driving force since his early exit from the WC final.
He’s not a really hefty, bullying prop and now his running game seems to have gone South, I’m not really sure what he’s bringing to the team.
He seems distracted and disinterested.
For all the trumpeting England as a big physical team, I saw cause for concern against Italy. Yes, Curry and Underhill put in some big hits but BV has lost his ability to smash through opponents and gain yardage to the same degree he did a couple of years ago when he was almost unstoppable on a gallop.He is still our only really big ball carrier too.
Time for Jack Willis or Ted Hill to make a bow on the flank?
The big boys also fell off a surprising number of tackles, often against lighter and less powerful opponents.
For the AI’s (or whatever they are called now) I’d like to see harry Williams on the T/H with Genge or Obano at 1.
At risk of repeating myself ,please Ed, give Jack Willis a few run outs.

Valid observations Acee, and I agree. I suppose I was a little blinded by the good quality we have in the pack that distracted me from some faults. You are spot on with Sinckler; post RWC final he seemed to be really enjoying his rugby with a smile on his face, but since seems a bit subdued – he hasn’t really landed with a bang at Bristol. Maybe its the move away from London and he just needs to start enjoying life/rugby again but something is a miss.

BV, again agree he has somewhat become a bit of a one trick poney and even that trick is not as potent as it once was. He was criticised for this in his earlier career but then he shed some pounds and added some lovely off-loading to his game and cutting a few lines as opposed to route one, but he apears to have digressed. Either way we need to start developing a credible back up as a) he is likely to get injured again and b) if he is not adding anything during the game he can be subbed. At the moment he doesn’t have anyone (well in EJs eyes) pushing him for his place.

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Good observations Acee and DM. I havent seen a big carry from Sinks in a while and wonder if he’s focussing too much on making an off-load instead of hitting the line at full speed. When the off-load or short pass comes off it looks great (see Curry try in WC warm-up v Ireland) but if the pass isn’t on then he doesnt have the momentum to make a dominant carry.

I think there are the ball carriers to make these big carries, and I don’t necessarily think size is all that matters in this department. Look at the French backrow, all made good carries v Ireland whilst being relatively average in size for backrowers. I would like to see Ted Hill be given a chance. He plays so well for Worcester. Havent seen much from Willis in the terms of attack (I know he’s great defensively) so don’t know if his addition would address this.

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Willis carries well, and he can also sniff out the tryline. In some respects reminds me of the great George Smith. Seems to often be in the right place at the right time. He tackles very well also I think it will be a battle between him and Underhill for a regular place.

As with many I just still scratch my head at the omission of Sam Simmonds. For me he is a great replacement if BV is not having a great game – or you could just say to BV ‘go all out for 40/50mins’ until he is gassed then bring on the fresh legs and speed of Simmonds that opens up a different dimension. He is also proof that size (weight) is not the be all and end all. He has a lot of power and a low centre of gravity and can be deadly at close range. I think BV can often run a bit too upright, Simmonds tends to go fast and low so despite him lacking the typical No 8 size, he is real squat power coming at defenders. This also keeps defenders on their toes cautious they could get pinged for a seatbelt tackle on him as he is just over 6ft so can be difficult to stop legally at full pace for some of the taller forwards.

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Who takes the back-row spots in your match day squad if everyone is 100%. Assuming 4 spots in total (3 starting, 1 bench). For me, it’s going to take a lot to sub/replace Curry and Underhill; there were some great backrow performances this season but I think these two are a cut above the rest. Tackling, rucking, and carries, I think they do it all, and when playing together I almost think there is a synergy (nauseating phrase, I know). Earl offers some good over across the whole back-row but this could be done by Simmonds or Willis; the former two offer maybe more going forward ball in hand.

Billy V is the one player for me who maybe doesnt make the same impact (this is through an arm-chair critics eye); he does draw the attention of defenders and sucks in players, but think I’m just used to barnstorming tackle busting runs. Dombrandt went off the boil for me this year, but Quins were terrible so maybe this is why. Always been a fan of Mercer who seems to make good yards every carry. Simmonds was stand out for Exeter, and was electric in his England 6N performances.

Ummm it’s tricky but based on form alone I would go with Curry, Underhill, Simmonds and Willis.

For me BV falls into the Tuilagi category; when he is having a good game he is often unplayable, but I think he can go off the radar when England are on the back foot. Don’t get me wrong he is still a great player and he is off form, but I do feel he gets his place guaranteed on reputation with EJ (and not form as EJ claims he only picks on).

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So, Jack Willis has been selected to face the Georgians.
The front row looks interesting and will face a huge test v the brutish opposition, who love the macho face off that scrums are based on.
Not sure about maro on the other flank and definitely not sure about Joseph out wide. Why Ed, why?

“Billy V is the one player for me who maybe doesnt make the same impact..”

I would never support an English player, but this Irishman supports Billy V..

“We were asked if we wanted to take a knee or not, and what I saw in terms of that movement [Black Lives Matter] was not aligned with what I believe in. They were burning churches and Bibles. I can’t support that” – Billy V.

Love you Billy.

Totally agree, why out Joseph in the wing when we have quality wingers..or is it because they are now flankers?! Think Lawrence and Slade are the wrong way round and don’t like Itoje at 6 when, again, we have great options there.

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EJ talks about innovation, and I’m all for that, but I don’t see innovation in this team? I don’t see innovation in playing established players out of position when we have done it a number of times already and know what we get. I would much rather we started to blood quality players in their positions to develop the options going towards next RWC; we know what Joseph on the wing can do, why not try Thorley or give Cockanisiga a chance and learn something new?

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Joseph was virtually invisible V Italy in his “proper” position. Given we aren’t playing top drawer opponents then I have to agree, either Coka or Thorley should have got a start.
Ed will point to the fact that he has put a newbie in the centres and therefore he IS trying out new faces……………..

In the wrong shirt for his first start which adds more pressure, it also takes Slade out of the position he has been playing very well in? I just don’t get Eddie sometimes

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If it was down to me, Ed would have been replaced after the WC.
I’m a big believer that there is a natural curve of ascent,apex,decline with sports teams and coaches and i think Ed reached his peak in 2019 and it will be an amazing achievement if he gets England to another final.
I know SCW was given two bites of the cherry and came good in ’03 but in contrast to Jones, Woodward knew HE needed to adjust and adapt in order for his England to become the best team in the World.
Jones hasn’t got the same humility. Because of that attitude, I can’t see where or how he can bring anything new to the table which will inspire and excite the players coming through for 2023.
I’m probably completely wrong about this and I hope I am.
Time will tell.

What a mess of a selection. These AI for me should be about giving people a chance to prove/blood themselves in their CORRECT positions. Itoje @ flank makes zero sense at all – what is EJ trying to find out? Surely this is the perfect chance to see how Willis would operate with Curry for 60mins? FFS this selection ‘game’ he continues to play is quite frankly beyond a joke now. JJ on the wing – oh come on! For me he shouldn’t even be in the elite squad anymore, well past international level. Centres around the wrong way…..Youngs clearly being given another cap as priority as opposed to giving Robson a run out. EJ stayed too long with Australia after they lost the 2003 WCF and it seems history is repeating itself. I am beginning to think EJ has dirt on everyone in the RFU.

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So Ed lives to fight another day.
I’ve only seen some meagre highlights of the game so can’t really assess how we went. It seems the front row had the Georgians under the hammer which takes some doing. Other than that and JG claiming three tries, it appears to be another perfunctory rather than inspired performance.

Blimey , forgot Jack Willis! a well deserved debut and the opening try. Now, will Edward have the guts to pick him (and Jonny Hill) for more than one game?

Nothing more than a training match really Acee. Good to see our scrum smash theirs though as if the Georgians typically have anything to offer its a strong scrum. It was a better performance than against Italy, but that said the Georgians offered nothing and could not even disrupt like the Italians did – however that could have been down to a more controlled 80mins by England. BV still looks out of sorts, again his runs were far too upright and he didn’t really break the line; seems to have lost a yard of pace. That said he did make a couple of decent turnovers and was more prominant at the breakdown than he has been of recent. Backs still butchered chances and passing/linking wasn’t very fluid – probably because we had the 12/13 wearing the wrong shirt and a centre on the wing! Overall it was good, but just very hard to measure how good as the opposition were poor. I don’t think though that any of the NH teams will look forward to playing England as whilst we are not lighting up the skies we look like a knarly team and hard to breakdown.

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It’s a tricky one really; Willis hasn’t done anything wrong to be sent back to Wasps but then again Underhill has done nothing wrong to be replaced by Willis after one try scoring peformance against poor opposition. Earl offers cover across the back row and has also been in form. With Curry able to cover 8 though maybe Willis for Earl and give Willis another 30mins against stronger opposition? I don’t feel there is a right or wrong choice with our back row at the moment.

Do you listen to the BBC rugby poscast with Monye and Care? I sometimes think those two are on a wind up (or whacky backy) especially Monye. This week they were bigging England up so much it was cringe worthy. Talking about how they are the best in the world at what they do, and that their pressure game and ability to play in the right areas just suffocates teams, Care saying they are the only team adapting to how top tier rugby is changing. The week before Monye almost creaming his chinos on how England were going to batter Italy, back line would cut them apart….you would have thought he would be a bit more reserved this week.

They seem to have a very short memory that this was the same team that crumbled in the WC final and had no plan B, and the same team that didn’t turn up (apart from Jonny May) against France earlier this year when they had the chance to prove the WC final was a one off!

All this hype off the back of beating two sub-standard teams, and large parts of those games were laboured. I think a reality check is well due…..

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No, I haven’t heard that but it doesn’t surprise me. BBC Sport is getting as bad as it’s TV programming and “News” reportage.
I take the point about Willis/UnderCurry but you have to feel for a lad who is tearing it up week in week out in the Premiership and had such a good debut.
On a positive note , we haven’t had such strength in depth in the back row for a while,especially not with Neil Back type players . As you say, omitting any one of the current candidates doesn’t weaken the team. I really wish Ed would give Simmonds or another eight a run though. BV has been immense for England but he can’t go on forever and we need dept in all positions. Dropping Curry in there was a huge gamble, which more or less worked but DID weaken that team and wasn’t needed.
Don’t get me started on JJ playing out wide again either.

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Totally agree, that’s my 1 real issue with EJ and selection; there is no need to weaken the team or play people so out of position when we have the talent and ability to play people where they are proving to be quality. For instance, JJ is a fantastic footballer, but is he better than Cockanisiga on the wing? Is Ewels a better lock than Itoje or Itoje a better 6 than …probably so I’ll stop! You get my point, innovation in EJ mind seems to be playing people out of position randomly instead of using specialists in positions and looking to use them in different ways. I don’t like it. We lost Polledri for that in my opinion, the best players should get selected in the position they know and are expected to be test class. Thorley trg as a flanker isn’t innovation unless it makes a tangible difference, otherwise it’s a pointless media exercise.

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EJs record with England is decent, there is no ignoring it…and if you told me we would be in a WC final early 2019 I would have raised an eyebrow. So you do get many saying ‘if it’s not broke, why fix it’. my view is though is that it might not be broke ‘per se’ however can you imagine what could have been if he has played players in their specialist positions, blooded in a better No 9 and simply stopped with the continual tinkering and mind games – we may have actually lifted that trophy.

You VERY rarely see any other international teams playing players out of position. In fact the only one of recent is New Zealand – backfired on them in the WC semi. I also think they are wrong playing B Barrett at 15 to accommodate Richie Muanga, and it is impacting on their success. IMO Barrett is one of (if not) the most creative and dangerous players with ball in hand; at No 15 he simply does not get enough involvement in the game and its easier for the oppo to keep the ball away from him – just don’t kick long!

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I think EJ is trying to field the best XV players possible, at his disposal for that game. Whether this aligns with the players and their “preferred” positions is another issue. JJ is undoubtedly a better all-round player than Big Joe (and if you saw Bath’s game v Newcastle you will see that JJ is a better winger than Big Joe when it comes to defending). I would love to see Max Malins given a shot at FB but its clear EJ wants Daly and Slade on the field at the same time to give England as many footballers as possible.

Other selections are driven by the opponent or the type of game England are looking to play. Against a big Georgian pack EJ wanted bulk in the pack, hence selecting Itoje, Launchberry and Ewels.

Just because players aren’t often played “out of position” doesn’t mean its the wrong thing to do. The most notable for me is Jimmy Goperth at Wasps. He is an out and out 10 but was moved to 12 to accommodate for Danny Cips, and then Jacob Umaga, because he is one of their best players and it’s better to field him then to bench him.

Near close to a perfect performance against Ireland. Whilst not the most exciting game for the neutral, England were just so controlled and looked like had another gear if they needed it. May’s try – wow – Usain Bolt would have been proud of that gas. Englands defence was outstanding and I actually think EJ game plan was to invite the Irish to attack to give Eng a decent defensive workout. Can see why Underhill is ahead of Willis his tackling is just off trhe charts – we knew that anyway though. But he is everywhere on the field and the guy is also rapid over 50 metres, shame he isn’t put into space more often but that’s just not his game; he likes to be in the thick of it tearing up the grass.

I appreciate Ireland were not at full strength but still, they had a point to prove but just could not shift the ‘white orcs’. Very happy with that performance.

Despite what i said about BBC punditry, I have just read Matt Dawsons piece on yesterdays game and on Ed’s England overall at the moment and I do echo his feeling that England are becoming ruthlessly efficient at the expense of attacking flair and invention.
It’s hard to quibble too much but If we are going down the same road as SA, outmuscling teams and tackling them to oblivion and back, it’s worth remembering two current SA players who don’t fit that mould and who bring more than dogged confrontation; Kolbe and De Klerk .

If this style of play wins 6N titles and potentially a WC, I would be happy. It worked in 2003 for Eng and in 2007, 2019 for SA. We have our own Kolbe in Jonny May, but we don’t have a Faff. I’d like to see Robson given a start – for me he seems to try a bit too hard coming on for a 20min cameo.

I dont think its solely about dominating teams up front and overpowering them though. Eddie has said a few times that the way teams currently defend is part of the reason England play this way. Fewer committing to rucks to contest for the ball (mainly due to changes in the laws) and therefore more players fanning out in the defensive line, and sometimes fewer players in the backfield again resulting more players in the line. To get around this England use big carriers (and box kicking) to suck in players and create more space in other parts of the field. If teams don’t tighten around the ruck then the carriers are more successful in breaching the gain line and there is no need to go wide. If teams defended the tactics properly space would appear outwide, and this is where you’ll see players like Kolbe exploit the space especially later in the game when the oppo tires.

This is similar, imo, to Exeter’s tactics. Listened to Rob Baxter’s interview on the Eggchasers podcast and he spoke about Exeter’s supposed “boring” use of the driving maul. He pointed out that if teams defended the maul properly by committing more forwards to it, instead of leaving forwards out in the backline, then the maul would be stopped. This in turn would create space for them to exploit outwide.

I think we can bemoan the tactics as not being the style of play we want to see, but it scores tries. Same with England, they have the players out wide to capitalise when things do breakdown (see “Go Johnny, Go” May) once the field position has been achieved and the opportunity created.

What’s everyone’s thoughts on team to play Wales? I think it’s a good side; being picky I would rather Joseph and Youngs were replaced – quality players but would like to see them become squad mentors rather than starters; let’s see if Robson and Spencer can do it ready for RWC, similarly big Joe/Thorley. Glad to see Willis back in squad.

Happy with the selection as a whole really. With the exception of Lawes (maybe), I would say this in England’s strongest set of forwards. EJ seems to like the 6-2 split for teams like Wales, and Earl and Willis on the bench to have a big impact coming off the bench. A team akin to the start of EJ’s tenure – starters and finishers.

Not worried about JJ on the wing; he’s probably the best back defensively so having him out there should help to nullify Wales’ biggest threats in Adams and LRZ. He’ll switch to the blindside in attack so he can come into play in the midfield, with May being left out on the wing to utilise space and chase. Watson maybe not 100% either. I would like to see Thorley, but clearly EJ has a plan.

Decent looking squad. Shame Ollie Lawrence got crocked I liked the look of him against Ireland- seems the centre injury curse for England strikes again! It’s always difficult to know what EJs is planning but I suspect he will be focussing on building a decent winning streak and then a grand slam in the next 6N to restore confidence and pride beyond the WC final meltdown. I hope that beyond that he starts to look at blooding a few more faces – but who knows!

Not a fan of the 6/2 split tbh. I know others will see it differently but I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Proudfoot was the SA forwards coach and they overpowered us in the WC Final and now we have a 6/2 split just like the Saffers. I also think this game will be a hell of a lot more difficult than Wales recent , iffy results suggest.
On a side note, interesting to hear Sinckler admitting he’s been running on empty since joining the Bears. Bonus points for honesty there.We’d all noticed it and it was pretty obvious but it’s always heartening to hear a player being honest about his form. Hopefully he can kick on now.
If we are doing forecasts, i’ll be controversial and go for the Taffs by eight.

Pretty poor game but I guess you can’t knock a win in Wales. England definitely looked like EJ was being honest when he said they hadn’t worked on an attacking structure at all!!! Poor and too much kicking, I think a full strength Wales would have won that, we were lucky on a number of occasions. Loads of ball but no clue how to use it, a bit worrying…and Daley still can’t catch!

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Agree with you Stu. Wales missing Navidi, Tuperic, Davies, Williams – all players that can be a point of difference. Plus no home crowd to intimidate England. You’ll not doubt hear a few pundits claiming Eng had another 2 gears but I have heard this too many times and I actually think England are stuck in geard 3 and unless we can sort our attack out we will be there forever. Personally the only international team that genuinely shift through gears IMO is New Zealand.

My concern with this obsession of a defensive/kick/pressure strategy is if we go two scores behind we won’t find a way back. I suspect France will go for the jugular early with this in mind and then say ‘let’s see what you have England’.

Ford must wish Farrell had a hole in his torso so he could just throw the ball through him. I do appreciate comments from players that say we don’t see what Farrell brings in terms of leasership, motivation…however I can only comment on what I see on the pitch and for me he slows the attack and his kicking both out of hand and off the tee has been a little wanting the past few games. The way he talks to the ref is cringey as is his captains talk to the media at full time… so I do wonder how much his voice motivates his players!

When Watson is fully match fit he has to start, for me the guy is class and like May he goes looking for work. That said unless we sort out the attack he will probably not ever see much of the ball. Of course I am pleased with the win, and my criticism is from the angle of wanting to be the best. France will be the real measure of where we are.

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I said we would struggle and to a certain extent we did. Our game “plan” is basically: Copy South Africa. The difference being the Saffers aren’t as one dimensional as England. Yes, they base their plan on muscle but they also know when their opponents are knackered and ripe for shredding by the more mercurial players in their team.
England seem to have lost that ability to switch from the bludgeon to the rapier. In short it’s the same old story: One way of playing until Ed tells them they can deviate from it.
I fear France will be a step too far which may be a good thing. They can go blow for blow upfront and have some dangerous backs. I can see them putting 20-30 points on us if we pay as stodgily as we have up to now.

I’m reading EJs book at the moment and he openly admits he becomes obsessed when he has a plan, even when it might not be working to plan he becomes so determined to make it work. He also admits he should have moved on from coaching Australia after 2003 loss and would learn from this….history repeating itself??

For me he has become obsessed with the loss and the manner of the loss to SA and now hell bent on trying to turn England into SA.

Let’s be frank aswell; Ireland and Wales are both well off the pace at the moment, whereas we are (supposedly) an improved side and at full strength. I fear the France game is going to give a hard reality check

Just read on BBC sport that France will be without several of their top players due to a ruling with the Top 14. So we may just see another ‘grind and kick’ performance and a win from England but not really giving a legit measure of where they are and furthe extending the lifeline rope or Mr Jones!

Also forgot to say in previous comments – what was the F……. point of giving Robson 4mins? Please…..Eddie. How do you think it must make a player feel? Jeez

What did everyone think of Romaine Poite’s decision to overrule the TMO when he advised that Biggar had been taken in the air?

Being English I am probably biased but I thought two things – firstly this is a refreshing change from what is seemingly a greater involvement by in referring open play. The TMO highlighting infringements is obviously a good thing when it comes to blatant foul play or cynical actions that kill play. But I find it is also for “minor” things that could probably have gone either way if checked by the ref that stop play dead for no reason. If it were an infringement that would overturn the decision, then it would be reviewed regardless after the try has been scored.

Secondly, and more interestingly, Poite rejected the call of the TMO on the grounds that Biggar had jumped into Underhill. Watching it back I think this is spot on; Underhill is practically stationary, with no momentum towards Biggar, yet Bigger commits to the ball in the air and flies through into Underhill’s arms where he is tackled, subsequently losing the ball. If this was deemed as a tackle in the air, I think Underhill would rightly feel aggrieved – is he supposed to move out of the way and let Biggar through, just because Biggar has jumped in his direction? It’s a tough one and not consistent with how other referee’s referee the area, but a welcome interpretation imo.

The tackle in the air rule IMO gets abused by a lot of players who literally leap into the air like a gazelle with no thought of landing safely (and often impossible to land safely) knowing that there is a chance they will meet contact a split second before they land and win a penalty 9 times out of 10. I had to re-watch the Underhill tackle and I must say there is a very strong argument that yes Biggar kind of lands on Underhills shoulder. Biggar is flying through the air and Underhill is simply static and its more of a coming together than a tackle in the air.

From what I can see I can certainly say if Underhill wasn’t there, there is a good chance Biggar would have just landed flat on the floor and possibly injured himself.

I think its fair to say that if Biggar had less forward momentum and Underhill had tackled him whilst he had jumped vertically then we would be in agreement that a penalty is warranted – this type of play, where a jumper is in a vulnerable position, is dangerous and we have seen far fewer of these instances recently.

A distinction in rules for a player jumping directly vertical and a player jumping through/across other players is the right move.

Players raising boots towards opposition players, in an attempt to “defend” themselves, also needs to be penalised.

Good squad for the France game, interesting to see Barbeary called up – playing well but Simmonds must be fuming! Really hoping to see Malins or Watson at FB, I know we won’t, but Daley is awful under the high ball and one on one defending and it’s not getting any better from all the caps there; I think it’s real weakness defensively for us.

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Don’t think Daly was that bad last weekend, claimed most of the high balls I seem to recall. I do think he tends to get beaten too easily when a player breaks through and he’s 1 on 1 though.

Reckon we’ll see Malins in there eventually, and Watson fully fit is a must start imo. Not a bad headache to have for EJ.

Are you referring to Barbeary? I thought I saw him play 6 at the weekend in a try scoring performance…might have been at 2 though…eyes aren’t what they used to be?!

It does concern me, given BV injury record, we aren’t starting to give game time to Simmonds or someone else instead of, I assume, thinking Curry will just go there when needed.

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Yes. interesting comment from BV in the news today. He’s been working on adapting his game as opponents are /have worked him out and he doesn’t smash holes the way he used to.
While far from being a one trick pony, Billy’s game does largely revolve around him being nearly 20 stone and hitting you hard and low.
If England feel he’s been sussed then that only adds to the need for an alternative eight to my mind.
Given the power and athleticism making up England’s back row, maybe we would actually benefit from an eight with more of an all court game?

I stopped listening to that podcast a long time ago. The commentary and analysis of the actual rugby is usually biased (Chris Jones is also terrible) or not particularly in depth – last week Danny Care was complaining about rugby being boring (coincidentally it was a few days after quins were stuffed by chiefs) and he suggested, amongst other things, that there be a limit on the number of players to join the ruck smh. More recently the topic hasnt been rugby (what you’re getting at maybe).

On the laws, Tbf, every pundit atm is suggesting some pretty stupid things to “fix” rugby. All apart from Ben Ryan who pointed out that more and more laws will take us into an even more frustrating place, and that the breakdown and offside laws should be enforced properly.

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Agree – the actual analysis of the rugby on that podcast is rubbish. Monye is sooooo bias towards England it’s unreal and Chris Jones just has the most awful voice for radio – just really annoying. Monye also never comes out and admits when he is wrong. One example of recent which I mentioned in a previous post was when he was almost creaming his pants pre-Italy game how England were going to absolutely hammer them, wipe the floor, too much pace etc. On the post game podcast rather than eat a bit of humble pie and say he got it wrong, just blamed rustiness on a laboured performance and Italy stepping up.

As on the game becoming boring – I disagree to a large extent and if anything I think the ‘boring’ view is mainly around the recent internationals. I have watched some cracking games in the premiership recently to name some Quins v Saints, and Bears v Saints – and Ireland/Scotland yesterday I thought was a pretty decent and open game.

We don’t need a sudden set of new rules, the current ones just need managing more consistently….to echo your comments Jake – the refs need to police it better. 5 second rule is 20 seconds and the offside ‘rush up’ is just being ignored.

The only area that I feel does need a look is scrums. For a while, after they changed it before so you bind and engage, seemed to have stemmed the repeated collapses you used to get when two packs collided. But we seem to be reverting back to the impact just causing the front rows to go down and often I think it is a 50/50 call who has really caused the collapse

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It was so refreshing to see the ref in the Fiji game ping Fiji for not using the ball after it was called. I do find slow ball at the ruck is more of an issue in the prem so would like to see this policed better. Similarly, there are still too many players going off feet or not supporting their body weight at the ruck. I know this was penalised heavily in super rugby aorterao but then it went back to normal.

And agree with you DM… I love a good scrum but I do wish it would be used more as a restart, its still taking too long.

He has to go. This team still have no plan b. Kick kick kick. Attack was awful. Camped on French 5 yard line for several phases, afraid to throw it out to the backs. Do one dimensional it’s hard to believe. Absolute shite

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I don’t mind losing to anyone.I’ve watched and played enough sport to know you never have a divine right to a victory.(i know we didn’t lose btw).
What I find totally unacceptable is supposedly the “best international coach” in the World, making some of the best players look like completely one dimensional amateurs while collecting a King’s ransom for doing so.
The RFU are useless. Do they really not see how flawed Jones’ approach and methodology are?
I said a couple of weeks ago Jones should have been let go after the WC and nothing this season has altered my view.
I wish our future looked as bright as that of the French but until we get a coach who will actually let the players PLAY, we’ll continue to look like yesterdays men dressed in shiny new suits for effect.

I’m probably in a similar headspace and, after the first half, I was a bit dismayed at the game plan and was worried for the outcome. But the second half was a lot better and the subs came on and changed the game; Hill and Earl in particular, with Marler and Stuart nailing the scrums at the end. Malins also looked threatening.

The game was scrappy and didn’t show England in the best light. Year 1 of 4 from France 2023 and I’m sure there is more to come.

And it’s v refreshing to see the French play the way they do but looking back at the game, other than their try, did they actual trouble England in attack? England absorbed most of the pressure throughout the game and still had enough in the tank at the end to win. A lot of the talk (mostly from the media) downplaying this French side was, imo, premature. Yes they’re relatively inexperienced but they still had some international caps and players from some of the best club teams in France (a country with a huge player base). Jalibert, if not for Ntamack, would be starting 10 and Dulin showed why he was the starting 15 for so long. Without any expectation to weigh them down, they were given license to play and go after an England team in the hope of a historic win. Edwards influence is clearly showing in defence. This game was never going to be a walkover.

And to play devil’s advocate, who do you guys think we’d have gotten in to replace EJ? Genuine question. He got us to a WC final and took England on an unbeaten run that equalled that of the ABs. Even if England were to get a replacement, I don’t think there was anyone out there who would be an improvement.

Okay so I have had a bit of time to cool off and reflect on this game and the tournament overall for England. Bit of a long post so bear with me.
So the French game…okay France came to play, we always knew that at inexperienced French side with low expectations would/could be dangerous and they brought it to England, well done.

One could argue that the expectation for England to cruise this was premature but I am sure there is some statometer somewhere that shows a team with 600+ caps vs a team with, what, 100 caps(?) or something should not really trouble the more experienced side. A side that were WC finalists in 2019 and current 6N champions and pretty much the same team sheet for the past 2/3 years may I add. This was also our fifth game on the spin so excuses of having no pre-season don’t wash with me.

So given the above I think it is fair for many to feel disappointed by the performance and to be critical. Put it this way I feel a full strength French squad would have put England away by about 10/12 points based on what I watched.

I’m just so frustrated and bewildered by the continual kicking, and often kicking when there is simply no need to; it’s predictable. Some of the decision making needs a serious look at. Why did we continually go for the drive on the line at the end of the first half when it was clear France were just piling players onto the floor – how many times do you try it before someone decides to throw it out to the back when the French defence is clearly sucked into the breakdown? Why did Farrell go for the glory cross field kick when there was clearly an opportunity to pass it out and let the likes of May & Watson step on the gas? If we are not willing to try it in games like this, when will we ever? The tone for me was set from our first penalty. I felt we should have gone straight for the corner and set a marker instead of taking the points. Okay risk may not have got over the whitewash but that early in a game (of a dead rubber tournament) why not go for it? We can’t treat every game like a WC final for the next four years– which seems to be an element of EJs plan??

Our attack is still very jumbled with wayward passes, crabbing and just lack of flow. How does this get fixed? EJ banging on about the players wanting to play good rugby – so why are they finding it so difficult on the field? In EJs book he openly says that English players don’t move well (assuming he is referring to backs) and so had he got this so drummed in to his own head, he just doesn’t have faith in coaching attack moves – or is he just correct and our players don’t have the skills? I’m not convinced of the latter given we have the likes of Ford, May, Watson, Slade – all players who have the skills.

To summarise the past five games briefly I do think there is positives in terms of our pack and the depth we have, but without repeating myself it’s still that lack of being able to change up a game plan ‘in-situ’ and really put a team to the sword when we have the momentum. It often takes a half time interval to re-galvanise the troops but this won’t work every time. I have admired the controlling pressure we showed against Ireland and Wales but again I’d just like to be confident we can offer something different.

Without being overly critical we also need to consider that both Ireland, Wales and France were all under strength and we have had quite a few key decisions go our way that have led to a swing of momentum that has really helped us.

Is there someone to replace EJs? I don’t really know enough about the international coaching market to comment. Maybe the RFU have been scouting the market but no one wants to take on such a robotically coached set of players!??

There are many times when I get frustrated with the seemingly incessant kicking but I would point to the 2nd half and how England kept France pinned in their own half for the majority of the 40 minutes. France didnt threaten at all in that half and that was because England kicked well, pinned France back and forced them to kick return poorly or run it back and giveaway a penalty. I’d also point out that France had a very similar tactic to England and were looking to kick for field position. This gave them the opportunity for Dulin’s try – a lineout in good field position. We also saw in the Wales v Italy game (I think) that when a team overplays in the middle of the field then they are more likely to give away an unnecessary penalty. Why risk giving the oppo a chance at 3 points when you could be playing in their half?

Now, this isn’t to say that I am happy or enjoy watching England attack ball in hand atm. As you say DM, the passing doesn’t seem that sharp (the first pass from Ben Youngs is terrible – Ford often has to jump) and it often gets through two sets of hands before there isnt any space thats remaining. England had a couple of chances in the second half that were butchered by Daly – if he’d straightened and drawn the defender out wide then Watson wouldve strolled in for 5 points. I don’t know who the attack coach is atm but I do despair with England’s attack, especially when compared to other teams. But again, a lot of the attacking play we enjoy isnt trained/coached and its the result of a break which is capitalised upon.

I wouldn’t necessarily say Ireland or Wales were understrength – by that standard then England were too.

I do hope we see some improvement in attack going forward but 5 wins from 5, against some of the strongest teams in the world, in pretty comfortable fashion (ignoring France), during a pandemic, with 3 years to go until the WC…I think I’ll take it.

Ummm I think there is a very good argument to say Ireland and Wales were understrengthed; Ireland were missing Sexton, VD Flier, Henshaw, Ringrose, Larmour and Murray didn’t start as just back from injury when they played England.

Wales were missing L Williams, J Davies, Navidi, Moriarty and Tuperic.

All players that surely would have strenghtened both Wales and Ireland? Certainly suspect they would have been selected if available? I think England were only missing Ford for one of the games and one would argue having Farrell at 10 instead of Ford wouldn’t ness weaken the team. The rest of the squad EJ had to pick from was arguably the best he could ask for – so much he can send a player like Jack Willis back to his club for the weekend against Ireland!!

Good point, I forgot the list of player’s Ireland were missing. Add Dan Leavy to that too – looking forward to him being back and competing for a Lion’s spot.

Nonetheless, I shall remain optimistic for the time being. England beat both sides comfortably whilst not playing particularly well so I think the 6N in a few weeks time will hopefully provide a better indication where this England team is.

is anybody out there…

Any thoughts on the Lions Tour and whether it should/should not go ahead? Personally I would just scrap it and move on even if it was ‘possible’ to play the games. If it goes ahead with no crowds or on neutral ground it will always have an asterix against it in the history booked for the winner.

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Hi DM, I’ve looked on the site a few times but when i clicked on “Home” got chucked out. Nice to see the RB is still going.
I think the Lions tour has become a farce tbh. The suggestion of playing it over here completely missed the point of it being a four yearly TOUR by the Lions. Whoever came up wit the idea probably meant well but as Spike Milligan once said “so did Hitler!”
I agree with you, sad as it may be I’d scrap it and try again in’22,which if it went ahead would actually fit in nicely with the rest if the decade with three tours being possible ,ending in ’30.
Any thoughts on ed and the 6N?

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Yes for a period the site seemed to have a glitch of some sort when tried to click the Home page.

6N is going to be a strange one I feel. No crowds will clearly impact performances. I think this will work in England’s favour for the away games in Wales and Ireland as often their crowds act as the 16th man and can intimidate the away team – Wales moreso. On the flip side, whilst Twickenham is a great stadium, I don’t feel that the English crowd gets behind the team as much as the Welsh and Irish do, English fans tend to be more reserved and Twickenham can often feel like a ghost town if nothing much is happening in the game or Eng are struggling. In short I don’t think Eng will be as affected by not having fans as the other teams will.

Big question is whether France will follow their withdrawal from Europe and call into question the 6N??

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Overall, It’s probably the squad most England supporters would have picked, with one or two caveats.
I hope Ed has picked Odogwu because he wants to develop him into a fully formed international player rather than cap him a couple of times then discard him just to thwart Italy. I’m not convinced Randall is ready yet and would have liked to see Ollie Smith in the mix.
I love Mark Wilson but he’s not the future (see Youngs,B) so it’s good that Willis will be involved all be it on the margins of the squad.
Ollie Thorley must be wondering what he’s done wrong too.
What do others think?

No real suprises in the bulk of the selections. I suppose EJ sees enough of ‘the future’ in Underhill, Earl, Curry to feel it sensible to include Wilson for experience, maybe to sure things up if the game is getting a bit erratic! I sincerely hope Robson gets some proper game time and not just 5min cameos!

On a random side note – has anyone read EJs book? I recently finished it, was okay but his self-obsessed attitude deffo seeps through the pages as you read it and there is a lot of ‘in hindsight’.

I’ve not read super Ed’s book. I might read it when he finally moves on to another coaching job!
Re the squad, losing Marler and Launchers is a blow. Marler is still our best scrummaging 1 in my eyes and Ewels just seems like a lazy selection by Edward.
Can Wasps fans give me some insight into the type of L/H West is? He’s a big lad but aren’t they all these days?

Big chance for Willis in the 6N, Underhill is out with a hip injury. He seems a bit prone to injuries poor Underhill, hope it won’t become a hinderance on his further rise with England

Yes. we have such depth in the back row at the moment.
willis might not hit as hard as u/hill but he certainly wouldn’t weaken the team if needed.

He can cetainly sniff out the tryline that’s for sure, so might actually be useful if we continue to try and bosh our way over the tryline from 5 yards instead of passing the ball to our backs!

1

Nice to see the first two games will be back on terrestrial TV. That sorts my Saturday afternoon out!
Anyone else agree that the results of these opening games will be a huge pointer toward who may win the tournament?

Yes looks like the team selection is to bosh the Scots, wear them down and then bring on the bench. Shame Willis isn’t even on the bench to come on when there are tired legs, I feel he would have more impact than Earl if the game plan it to put to bed a knackered Scottish side. But that really all depends on how the earlier game unfolds!

England don’t generally play their best as the favourites so will be interesting how this game goes.

1

Scotland: composed, intelligent, inventive, organised, cohesive. Deserving winners of the ’21 Calcutta cup game. I hope you go on and show the same form for the rest of this tournament. Well done.

England: sloppy, dull, clueless ,inaccurate ,disjointed,indisciplined. The most interesting thing about you is the haircuts of certain players.

I can’t watch much more of this crap from Jones.I really wish the RFU had the cash and the guts to pay him off and sod him off.We are regressing at an absolutely alarming rate and the goodwill garnered by Jones from 2019 must surely have been used up by now?

Couldn’t agree more Acee. I don’t know what is going on behind the curtains but those players looks lost, lacking confidence and just some of the very basic skills of rugby missing!

This loss was coming though. Despite winning last years six nations and the Autumn Nations Cup, many of our performances were concerning and were masked by the winning streak. In the Nations Cup we relied on bullying under strength sides (both Ireland and Wales had several first choice players missing against England) and then when a third string French side stood up to our full strength side (minus Manu) we looked very ordinary. Scotland no doubt looked at that game and thought ‘we can take these’.

Our attack play has vanished into thin air. So many passes going awry, kicking again mainly aimless and because nothing else seemed on. I cheered when Youngs was subbed but within 5mins I was calling for him to be brought back on! Robson was all over the place.

EJ comments after the game just so cringe and spiky. I thought Jonny Wilkinson was gritting his teeth giving his comments in the studio box. You could see he was trying to be nice when really he just wanted to say ‘wow that was crap and those players and EJ need to have a long look at themselves’ .

Made me laugh when he tried be nice and liken it to when the 2003 team peaked prior to the WC and then had a few iffy performances at the WC…..difference is they quickly addressed it and won the flipping thing!

1

Yes, I was surprised Dallaglio didn’t sound off too. Everyone connected with England Rugby just seems to be turning into “show me the money” yes men.
There isn’t a lot else to say really. I don’t see where or how this will end, other than badly. If we play like that against the French they will tear us apart, which may be a good thing.

I would rather take a few loses in the 6N and a pasting by France if it means we see some much needed change post 6N.; problem is I don’t think EJ will make those changes and claim that the poor 6N will benefit Eng in the lead up to 2023. Either way EJ is not going to make changes in this 6N, so scarily it leave two more 6N before we are into the run up to France 2023!

I appreciate some may argue that the likes of Simmonds Brothers, Dombrandt, Marcus Smith, Spencer are not better than the current incumbents at international level – but that doesn’t mean the cannot BECOME better with the exposure and game time. Yes they may need to find their feet and this might mean a couple of iffy performances – but let’s be frank the likes of Farrell, Ford, BV, Youngs, Daly are not exactly doing well are they?? The WC cycle does not have to presctriptively be a 4 year plan, South Africa and Australia have proven that, but it does need to be at least 2 years when you count the amount of competitve games there are for international teams in a 2 year period.

I have kept ‘blind fans faith’ in Farrell but his performances have been well below par for a Captain and International No 10/12(??) for a while now. His passing yesterday was woeful, too high, too low and just predictable. I was happy when Ford came on but TBH he didn’t really change much and also kicked when no need to. As for his Captains talk to Ben Kay after the match well – it was like he was waiting for someone to text him the answers to the questions and you can’t mask that with him being shell shocked as the pundits claimed – probably to try not to turn the knife too much.

Scotland did play well and they always raise their game for England that is in no doubt, but I really expected a reaction from England after half time as surely they should have realised that they were lucky to be only 2 points behind and Russell sin binned that there was an opportunity for them… knowing surely they could not play as poorly as they did in the first half?? But nothing, no reaction, no grit no desire – it was simply much of the same. This is very concerning.

Serious question – do people think the RFU genuinely think EJ is still the main man or that there is no other coaches interested in inheriting this group of players who it appears EJ has brainwashed??

2

I agree with much of what you say DM. I’d go so far as to say Jones looks and sounds bored and disinterested in his role. If so, he should step down now, before the morale of these players sinks even further into the mire.
Regarding the issues to be addressed, we’ve been here before:
Players being picked who are clearly out of form, Farrell being the best candidate for the captaincy and his excruciating discomfort come press conference time,
The obsessive and aimless kicking when we have a backline that stands comparison with any in the World if given the ball,
Youngs seemingly being destined to still be playing when he’s a hundred in years rather than caps,
Alternatives at 8,9,10 and 15……………,
I agree with you that these things will not be fixed under Jones tenure.
He’s had five years now and as you so rightly said, more than enough opportunities to fix things as Woodward and the players did between ’99 and ’03.
Re the RFU and alternative coaches, are they even bothered anymore?It strikes me that “England Rugby” has become a cosy little cottage industry for a chosen few who will ride the gravy train to the bitter end with scant regard for the future both short and long term.

So what changes would you like to see EJ make for the Italy game? I expect very little but if I could decide I would bench Farrell, BV, Youngs and Daly. Malins at 15, Ford @ 10, Earl at 8 and Robson at 9.

Robson didn’t really do much for his cause against Scotland but I think he needs a start to give him some confidence and not thrown into a mess of a game when things are going bad, or a 5min cameo when we have already won the match.

I think Lawrence deserves to keep his place, he needs to grow into the 12 shirt and hopefully with Robson and Ford he will see more service. I’d bring Odogwu on for Slade at some point as I want to see him tear things up!

Problem is whatever changes (or not) that are made how much will playing Italy really tell us? IMO it’s probably the worst fixture we could have had following the dismal display against Scotland as it may reinstate that false sense of security leading into a tougher match after the break

I agree about the game almost being a dead rubber DM. A real test against Ireland or Wales would have been far better.
Re changes, Ed has limited resources thanks to his initial selections. The shadow squad isn’t set up to address the major weaknesses in the team, for Sam Simmonds to be excluded even from the “maybes” is just criminal for example.
BV is an interesting one: He’s basically made himself undroppable by claiming he can only get fit by playing because he can’t apply himself to training. It’s just ridiculous and makes the whole team a hostage to his form and fitness.I wouldn’t tolerate it but BV is one of ed’;s stalwarts so no doubt he’ll line up against the Azzuri.
Just for the Halibut, my team would be:
Malins
May
Slade
Lawrence
Watson
Williams
LCD
Genge
Willis
BV.
Curry
Itoje
Hill
Ford
Youngs.

Hah have you seen the squad?? Lawrence not even on the bench! I give up really. We have been screaming out for a No 12 for several years now (not counting Manu as he is rarely fit for that long) and Lawrence seems to have taken the blame himself for not touching the ball – not the fact Farrell hardly passed it to him! Okay Lawrence is not the finished article but jeezz give the guy some time to develop at international level.

Really am lost beyond lost now with EJ mind and decisions.

1

No,I hadn’t seen the squad when I posted my line up.
It makes me wonder if some of the recent performances are due to the players getting fed up with Jones. It’s happened before in jones’ career.
Joe Marler said he wanted to spend more time with his family. I’m sure that’s true but is it the WHOLE truth? we’ll never know but………………
Like you, I give up.

I’m with you. I understand that we lost to Scotland and EJ wants to show the world he is right but, honestly, any team Eng put out should win. This is the only real chance for Odogwu and Randall and I’m gutted they don’t get a chance; we are learning nothing and hindering evolution in one of precious few chances left to look at runners for the RWC squad. I have been EJ out for a while, but, lack of coherence in coaching team, seemingly non-existent attack and kicking plan that has failed for a while is really convincing me I am right. BV and Farrell should be dropped, how BV is even in the squad ahead of Simmonds and Dombrandt is criminal , he hasn’t been in firm for 18 months at least. I really worry about our evolution under EJ.

1

What frustrates me more is some of the rubbish EJ spats to the media trying to protect his favourites – saying on the news can’t understand why fans are digging out Farrell and Youngs for having ‘one bad game’ and want them dropped – or that cliche cringe comment ‘they don’t become a bad team overnight’. Haskell and Monye also seem to be in this blinkered mindset. Fans (and any pundits worth their salt) are not just reacting off the back of one bad game against Scotland, we are summarising what has been point blank in front of everyone since the WC final in that change was needed, Faz/Youngs/BV/Daly need to be dropped…no plan B etc. and the fact that, despite winning most games in 2020, performances were rocky and tactics/gameplan was not evolving and we have now been caught out.

I harp back to the Nations Cup peformances. Bar Tuilagi we had a full strength squad AND fringe squad available. We put Ireland away relatively easily but they were understrengthed with a relatively new coaching set up. We then stumbled to a win against Wales who again had several first team players missing and going through transition and frankly were on poor form. Then we just about scrapped past a third string French side – who’s players collectively as a team had NEVER played an international together. Okay they were up for the fight but surely a WC final team who has been playing togeteher for 2/3 years should have soaked that up and then dismantled them in the last 25 mins?

So EJ it is not one bad game…..it’s several and why oh why do you keep faith?

1

Yes, some of the journos can ask daft or obvious questions at times but the utter contempt Jones displays is embarrassing.
I was hoping he’d get more of a grilling after the Scotland game but some of the press seem almost scared to press him about anything.

Nice to have your comments Stu, the more the merrier!
I’ve looked at a few other Rugby sites over the last week and the common consensus is that at the very least Jones needs to shake up selection and start being bold by putting form players and young tyros in the mix. The other view and i share it, is that jones is a busted flush and the RFU should be breathing down his neck about replacing him.
As Stu says, we aren’t evolving at all and the young talent that is being damaged by being selected and de selected from the same squad is bordering on insanity.
If italy should cause an upset what will EJ come up with for that? The ball was the wrong shape? Farrell’s boots didn’t fit right?
It’s becoming a farce.Jones has become a toxic presence.

What did you chaps make of the games on Saturday? Thought Scotland/Wales was a cracker, LRZ surely has to be a bolter for the Lions even if for the mid-week games? I acually fancied Wales before the game – and not just saying that. They are a dogged side and I just felt with no crowds they would steal a win whilst Scotland were dealing with the hype of the England game. Scotland had the chances to win it but just decision making let them down.

England/Italy. Not really much to take from the game apart from Jonny May always comes up with a moment of magic (when finally given some service). Same said for Watson. I am a big fan of Watson and again when he gets the service and some ball in hand time he is (IMO) a class winger.

Farrell/Youngs were a hinderance to out intent to attack. Honestly Youngs’ passing is atrocious for an international rugby player, surely even EJ must be thinking this is his last 6N in an England shirt, or at least not as the No 1 starter?? Farrell just looks all out of sorts, as does BV. Dallaglio was pretty blunt with his comments after ‘BV and Daly need to be dropped’. Plain and simple.

I don’t think the rest week will favour England; it will just give EJ more time to brainwash them into going back to a kicking game against Wales. Wales on the other hand probably need a rest week to patch up a few players and rest a few of the old guard after two pretty intense games. I just cannot see us turning them over.

Felt so sorry for Jack Willis – how hungry did he look when he come on? Only to be stretchered off minutes later – I’m gutted both as a fan and a human for him. Likely he could also have been a bolter for the Lions but that is now gone. Mend well and fast Jack!

I can only echo your thoughts DM.
My heart goes out to Willis.To score your first 6N try and then receive such a bad injury just a few minutes later was cruel beyond belief. I immediately thought of Tom Rees, another potentially World Class Wasps flanker who was cursed by injuries.
Amazing how we threw the ball around yesterday after treating it like Plutonium against Scotland.We just seem like flat track bullies at the moment.
Farrell again distinguished himself by openly mocking the Ref, which wascaught full on camera and showed him up for the strutting, classless berk he seems determined to become.( by his coach shall ye know him).
I was pleased Robson got a decent amount of time which i think he used well. What he now needs is fifty against tougher opponents but Ed will no doubt bench him against Wales.
May was amazing. Such awareness, speed and gymnastics. he has developed into a truly World class wing and watson isn’t far behind.
Not convinced at all by Genge who seems to have regressed as a prop and in temperament.
As you say , we now know Scotland are NOT a one game team. I thought they would knock Wales over and were unlucky not to do so.
A strong Scotland is good for them, the 6N,and the Lions. Long may their rejuvenation continue.
Coming back to England, the next three games will really determine where we are and where we are going. The jury is out.

I thought England were poor again against Italy, the performance didn’t justify the wasted opportunity to look at some new options like Odogwu. EJ just doesn’t seem to want to try new players. Tactically, I think we are miles off the pace and if he doesn’t call up Simmonds for Willis then I have no idea where we are going. BV and Daly have to be given a spell out the team and the midfield has to be dealt with, it’s just not working and hasn’t for too long….really running out of hope.

1

This game was always a hiding to nothing. That said, I totally agree that Ed should have been more adventurous in his selections. We now know Robson has promise at nine buy we also know that Youngs will start against Wales. Dropping Lawrence and Odugwu just gave people more ammunition to criticise Jones and rightly so.
We could all probably name the team v Wales right now……………

I don’t see us winning all three of our next games, based on what I have seen so far we will do good to win one! If that is the case then I hope that EJs is given a golden hand shake – post 6N its 2 years till the next World Cup (plus a few months) that is not long at all to start to change things up and bring through some new blood.

If he keeps his job, which is highly likely irrelavent of the results, then i sincerley hope that even he can see that Youngs, Farrell, BV, Daly need to be benched at the very least and if he has any commitment to winning in 2023 or dignity then he needs to make these calls. Surely even EJ is not Narcissistic enough to carry on ignoring the issues…??

I’d love to see Farrell dropped now tbh. As i said in an earlier comment, his utter childish disrespect for the ref was plainly caught on camera v Italy, added to his shoulder barge on Varney. He’s becoming a thoroughly unpleasant person, let alone rugby player and is certainly not fit to wear the shirt or lead the team. I read a comment over the last week from Danny Care (I think) asking for Farrell to be given time to mature. He’s 29 for God’s sake!

Time to mature…..oh please! Guy needs a reset of some sort and if he is to remain part of the England set up, he should not be captain. He just doesn’t handle it well and simply does not gain the favour of refs at all. He mighr even redicover some form if the burden is removed – Robshaw did.

I get it that some are saying it’s unfair that the knives are out for him, but it is just fans and pundits stating what is true; he is out of form, seems to have regressed as the player he was 2/3 years ago and has just become very robotic. He cannot manage the ref and often lets his emotions get the better of him. Nothing in that observation is untrue. Christ it happens to players, no one is bullet proof, but the right decision needs to be made. EJ made no qalms about removing Robshaw as Captain and it was the right thing to do. Difference is, Farrell is HIS project so stubbornly won’t admit defeat in the matter.

Maybe EJ is the one that needs maturing!

1

Anyone else puzzled as to why the France game was almost called off? We saw how good their “b” team can be last autumn so It seems a little strange to have all this fuss now.
Back to England, am I the only one who thinks getting a hiding off Wales would be a good thing in the short to medium term?

I think we will get a hiding from Wales. EJ won’t stop picking the Sarries boys, even though clearly out of sorts, and other players like Daly that just aren’t performing well enough to stay in the side. I think we will see the same team and tactics as normal and our lethargy and penalty count will be our undoing again. Fir me, EJ has to go now, we need a change of direction and thought quickly if we are to have a run at the RWC.

1

Ed has gone for the 6/2 bench again. Given that Wales will try and beat us up as they try to beat us, we could be in serious trouble if we start losing backs to injury/treatment.

I’m really starting to think EJ will walk after this 6N with a separation agreement. It seems like he has lost the will to try and fix things. Admitedly I think he is restricted with making squad changes unless for injury, but even then he calls up some chap from Leicester who is bearly out of sixth form! Seems like he has just thrown his hands up in the air and just given up.

1

That’s the big question/issue. I hold my hands up I don’t know enough about top level coaches who might be on the market. Maybe a trend in that EJs knows his job is safe, so passes this onto the sarries players! Oh what a palava

1

Very strange game and I am really disappointed. Thought England did very well to pull it back to 24-24 especially as one and maybe two of Wales tries should have been chalked off. Then we just spurned any momentum we had with mistakes or silly penalties. I thought a few of the penalties were iffy against Eng in the first half but the three that led to Wales getting 9 points ahead in the second half were just school boy errors. For once I don’t think we can curse EJ for a loss, this was players chucking it away on the field in the last 15mins with lack of discipline.

Farrell looks like a man on the edge. I can see him red carded before the end of the 6N just losing it at some point

I’m not sure how this positions us for the French game. We played some good flowing rugby, players looked a lot sharper in attack and I thought we defended pretty well. But I fear the players heads may drop now.

1

I thought that was the worst refereeing 1st half in 6 Nations history. Most penalties marginal at best and both tries were, for me, absolutely farcical to award. However, England are just not good enough, penalty count and method in 2nd half schoolboy and selections were again exposed. EJ has to go, his team and squad picks are a joke now and the team just do t seem to have a clue.

1

Calling up George Martin is the best example of how bad things have got. No offence to Martin but come on! English players and teams must be utterly baffled

1

I think my understatement was more absolute bafflement Stu.
I agree the Ref was abysmal although I don’t have an issue with the first try. R-Zammit didn’t knock forward so I can see why it was given. The second was a joke but as you say, two iffy tries and a dodgy ref are the least of England’s issues right now.
What can I say that you and DM haven’t? Nothing.

Actually don’t think I can take the result at face value. The penalties were comically inconsistent and the two tries at the start…. Well.

When the game was allowed to flow both teams stretched the respective defenses, but think England were on top.

Apart from Daly, who was god awful, the backline was v sharp and should’ve really put more points on the board.

Those criticising Farrell are showing their dislike for him as a person. Think he was quality today. Contained North well, didn’t miss a tackle, and was good in the backline, took the ball into contact when necessary and straightened when running ball in hand. I would’ve lost my shit had what happened to Farrel happened to me. Farrell kept his calm after a BS penalty for rolling the wrong way (?) followed swiftly by the worst piece of refereeing I have seen in a long time (first try, for anyone confused). This really felt like pascal had an agenda against him.

Billy also better, very active and carried well, usually beating the first man and requiring at least 3 tacklers.

As stated Daly needs dropping. He is actually getting worse. Slade also v weak.

England were in the ascendancy at half time but came out slower. The bone head penalty from Hill followed by the quick tap was a big blow.

But the penalties throughout the game were all pretty harsh, Pascal was militant in officiating England’s defensive offside line yet didn’t pay Wales’ any attention.

I think changes are needed. The forwards were solid and our set piece was better but Hill was a little off today. We need Lawes back. Daly and Slade need dropping. Give Malins and Lawrence a shot. Curry and Itoje were men possessed, even though they gave away penalties (though onke some were clear penalties, if we are being honest).

I don’t think those criticising Farrell is due to the disliking of him as a person at all. I agree he was a lot better today and played very well. Passing good, took contact, tracked back often and kicked a lot less. But this was the best he has played in a while. He has had some poor games of recent and was criticised appropriately. He has responded well so let’s hope it lasts.

The first try was a double blow on both decisions agree with you there. Farrell didn’t get a chance to roll away as soon as he hit the deck he was piled into by two forwards and then the time on/time off?! Shocking

1

Fair enough, I’ll take that back DM. Just thought the comment re him being close to the egde and getting a red wasn’t really justified.

I don’t think Slade should be outside him, he needs a ball carrier to crash it up so he’s free to distribute. Thought he took it into contact well. Think the criticism of late has been justified but he definitely answered some of that today.

And the “rolling the wrong side” call was the biggest pile of BS. We all saw the replay and he rolled off the ball.

Agree with Stus comment below, there aren’t any carriers, that being said they did shackle North well.

My comments on the red were not a dig at Faz, in fact I like him as a player overall. I can just see him boling over if Eng have a poor game against the French or the Irish really winding him up (Sexton/Murray).

Agree on the Slade comments, I don’t think we are getting or seeing the best from him when we have the Ford/Farrell axis. In some way this I felt also hindered JJ at 13. Both JJ and Slade operate best when have space (and boy can they exploit it) but our backline still tend to crab when we have Faz at 12 as you say he doesn’t suck in enough players.

So again we seem to be back to the question of whether EJ is trying to fit Farrell into the team (or Ford depending on how you see it) at the expense of the wider team? Faz did play a lot better yesterday, but based on his recent games it would have been hard not to improve and ultimately he didn’t do anything special that you wouldn’t expect an international No 12 to do. For me it was a 7/10 performance from him but is that enough to stop the glaring needs to blood in a proper 12 -such as Lawrence who seems to have been exiled through no fault of his own. Again nothing against Farrell, I ma just saying it how i see it.

Yeah, I agree re the muddled backline selection, and ultimately it possibly hindering England. The best I thought Englnad looked was FH-Manu-Slade, but we need to move on from Manu. Lawrence is the natural fit.

Huge Faz fan (as you can probably tell) but I did wonder whilst watching Italy what it would be like to have Marcus Smith at the helm. One can wonder, but I think it wont be until post 2023 that we get to see this happen.

Agree Daley needs some time out, Billy was better as were the rest of the Sarries contingent. I really think another weakness exposed today was the lack of a carrier in the back line; a few times we seemed to miss someone who could fix defenders and threaten the line physically.

1

More astounding nonsense from Jones today; Owen Farrell is still learning about what captaincy means apparently. I don’t mean to bang on about Farrell and Jones seemingly unbreakable bond but come on! I accept that the role of captain requires certain qualities and those qualities don’t all appear fully formed at the same moment in time but surely the lad learned some of what’s required in school and age group Rugby?
Getting the ref on your side is just basic. Sorry Ed but this is just taking the whatsit now. If Golden boy hasn’t grasped that now he never will.
I read two think pieces one by Nick Cane , the other by Brendan Gallagher and listened to Brian Moores podcast over the weekend and they all broadly agree on the point that young Faz is just NOT the right choice for the armband.
It’s getting silly now.

1

I just cannot take his comments seriously anymore. I’m nearly finished James Haskells recent book (well worth a read) and he says how EJ would basically set out to wind the media and pundits up with comments – example the Jack Nowell as a flanker. That said I do think there is some element of blind faith and protection of Farrell. I just think he will go back to being a better player without the weight of the captaincy on his shoulders. Again I refer back to Robshaw – form improved when he was released of the armband for both England and Quins.

What’s everyones thoughts on the France game? Ntamack and Vakatawa back and I heard Vaka had a solid club game at the weekend. I think it could be a long afternoon for England. Suppose depends if France could be caught cold with a few weeks out of camp?

It sounds almost treasonable but my biggest fear is the lay off may affect France more than England. If we win either by one point or twenty one, the heat will be off Jones and he’ll be back to being a cocky little basket quicker than you can say “plus ca change, plus la meme chose”.
I’m finding it difficult to say anything else. We know ED won’t surprise us with any radical selections or changes to playing style.
I’m actually bored by and with England Rugby right now.

I think Acee is right , but for fun, my team for France would be:
Mako
George
Sinckler
Itoje
Ribbans
Curry
Earl
BV
Youngs
Faz
May
Lawrence
Slade
Odogwu
Watson

What do you think?

1

Looks good to me! I’d deffo like to see Earl be more than a ‘finisher’ as EJ calls them! I have never been a fan of the finisher tactic. I am of the view just put your best 15 out who are likely to get you ahead on the score board the firm things up later in the game with the likes of Wilson coming on to replace Earl. Appreciate that is subjective as you never know how a gsame will pan out, but Earl is the future and Wilson is unlikely to be around for France 2023.

Shame Youngs is still first choice, but to be fair Robson hasn’t really take his opportunities to knock BY off his podium.

1

A decent line up. I feel for Jonny May atm though. He seems to be forcing things because he gets so little ball to work with so I wouldn’t drop him.
For the hell of it: Malins, May, Watson, Lawrence, Slade, Youngs, Ford, Mako, LCD, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Curry, BV, Earl. Captain;Youngs!

The team named:
Malins; Watson, Slade, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Ewels, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Bench: George, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Robson, Lawrence, Daly.

Let’s hope Malins doesn’t fall to the curse of playing France as his first full run out like Furbank did! I suspect not as IMO he is a better player.

1

Glad to see Malins get a start in place of Daly, but i just don’t see what Ewels adds – maybe i am being harsh, but Ewels shouldn’t be near the squad at all for me. Lawrence on the bench might help later on, but, again i think the lack of a carrier in the backline causes us real problems; would rather he starts. Lastly, we will do the same with Odogwu as we did with Polledri – waste an excellent prospect and lose him to Italy. Wouldn’t want to cap him just to keep him but he deserves a chance and could be a real asset.

1

Agree about Ewels. Not particularly big for a lock,not dynamic and not a really big hitter.
Malins will look the part and hopefully, will be given a chance to replace Daly for good.
Looks like we are going to kick the leather off the ball to turn the French and stop them gaining momentum with powerful runners like Vakatawa, Alldritt etc. If that doesn’t work, we could be in for a long afternoon.

I can see the French winning by two clear scores. The France of ‘old’ I would have been confident of turning up cold from a few weeks off, but not now with Shaun Edwards. Despite England improving against Wales, and clawing back the points deficit, Wales didn’t really have to do that much to win the game apart from keep their discipline and soak up Englands pressure. Ok ok….the two gifted tries are a big debate still, however I still think Wales would have scored one or maybe two tries at some point given how open England were willing to play.

Despite the 6N now out of reach, I feel there is still loads of pressure and despracy on England to win and prove the media/fans wrong. I fear this will play into Frances hands and they will take their chances when they come – and they will come no doubt.

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Eddie Jones continues to baffle me…and what a hypocrite! Just saw a snippet of him on BBC news talking about England…..

“as England we are expected to win every game, but winning is not the be all and end all. We have a responsibility to develop the team for 2023 World Cup”

Hmmm hold on Mr Jones – you appear to have changed your tune…what is not only last Autumn “it’s all about winning and building momentum” hence his persistency with the same old faces as this was (in his opinion) the best team to win the next game??

Couple of losses and NOW it’s not all about winning – pleeeassseeee!!

“responsibility to develop the team”……..great so we see one change wth Malins coming in. WOOP WOOP. That’s it, we have solved the plan for 2023. Get your money on England.

My only slight – and probably blind hope is that EJ has finally woken up and smelt the Parisian coffee approaching in just shy of 2 years and we will see the changes rung post 6N and this is last chance saloon for some players.

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It’s typical jones isn’t it?
Call me paranoid but I’m tired of feeling like he knows full well that he’s just pratting around with the players and team but is bomb proof and therefore doesn’t give a toss.
If , come the AI’s (or whatever they get called this year) we don’t see at least five or six new faces in the squad, who are afforded enough game time to show their mettle at this level then I’m done with England Rugby until this lunatic goes.

Much better game than I was expecting! Much improved performance and intent. Malins didn’t do much and Daly actually looked really good when he came on! Curry carried well, everyone looked better actually, thought it was a good performance all round. BV is defo getting better but barely beats the 1st defender in last few years now, I would still like to see England with Simmonds at 8 or at least on bench as a utility forward with Lawrence also adding power from the midfield.

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I can see where you are coming from, I’m happy with the result and performance today but there is still a lot to understand about where this team is going.

Thanks Stu. I’m not trying to just be the contrary one but I thought Dallaglio summed it up perfectly yesterday; “If England can play like that, why don’t they do it more often?”
The game was quick, full of great Rugby from both sides and played in the right spirit. I thought we coped well with the pace and power that France possess and we just about deserved the win.
However…. I still feel this team lacks an identity and a direction and , as DM says, certain players will now continue standing in the way of development and evolution.
Maybe it’s just me?

To add to that SC Woodward was quite right in shooting down EJs comments about the game moving away from being attritional and playing fast SCW “the game has always been about quick and fast play, it’s never changed”.

I am hoping (as Matt Dawson said) this is a lightbulb moment for England (Eddie Jones!). I think, and hope, that EJ just got a bit too clever for his own good in 2020 – trying to get one step ahead of the game, that in his view, was no longer a game with any attacking space so kicking and to not have the ball was ‘the future’ and the only way to win was attritional so attack was irrelavent. It backfired…so let’s hope it has awoken his soul for rugby again.

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Excellent game of rugby – and I kinda have to eat my words. The way France played seemed to play into Englands hands, not the other way as I thought it would! Credit to the players though some very solid performances. Farrell seemed to be everywhere and despite falling off a few tackles he contained Vakatawa well and disrupted well. Youngs looked like he was loving life out there.

Malins didn’t do much to stake a claim to be picked ahead of Daly against Ireland but I would still like to see him start as we need to look beyond Daly IMO so Malins needs more experience and opportunity to prove himself. I have always thought Watson is a world class winger/player – not just for his attack but his all round game is very consistent and his defence is not given enough credit. I think he will be a starter for the Lions or at the very least in the match day squad.

Without being too negative my only concern is this wins gives EJ and a few players another lifeline when I still feel change is needed if we are to improve towards 2023. For his limited cameo I felt Ollie Lawrence looked like the type of No 12 we need. Appreciate he came on against tired legs but his few carries punched holes in the French and I would also like to see Earl start in place of Wilson against Ireland. Nothing against Wilson but reality is he will unlikely be here for the 2023 WC and with our injury jinxed back row I feel Earl needs to be tested at this level for 80mins.

EJ did make me laugh when giving his post match interview – he couldn’t help talk about the two dodgy tries against Wales. I think he was asked something like “how did you manage to improve so much on last week” and he responded something like

“we didn’t, we played the same but when you have two decisions like that last week it’s hard to win a game”

EJ really enjoyed that…so much that he then referred to France as Wales!

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Team to face Ireland:
Malins; Watson, Daly, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Ewels, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Daly…….I am sooo lost on EJs mind now. So he pulls Daly from FB as it’s not working well, and plonks him back into centre where he has not played for Country nor club(?) for a long long time….when he has two regular centres warming the bench. I suspect we might see a half time change if things are not working of Daly to FB, Lawrence at 13.

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I totally agree DM. Odogwu hasn’t made the cut either which suggests Ed sees room for improvement and increases the chances of Italy poaching him.
My other concern is that , love him as I do, Wilson may be getting a bit slow for this level of Rugby.It would have made sense to give Earls sixty or seventy then bring Wilson’s experience off the bench imo.

Agree both. I think Daly best position is 13 but not being used there for so long means it’s a risk and harsh on Lawrence perhaps? Really annoyed about Odogwu, calling up Marchant, who I really like, from the shadow squad instead must be a kick in the teeth and may well see him go to Italy. EJ has a completely baffling record of ignoring great form like Odogwu, Simmonds, Dombrandt etc. I also agree that Earl is more likely to feature at the RWC compared to Wilson and therefore should start getting game time; assume Wilson’s power and work rate keeps him in, which I get, but when do we start to look more than 1 game ahead ?

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What a schooling England just got! Ouch. What I just don’t understand is how England can go from last week being a lot more disciplined and much less error stricken to giving away 14 penalties and just sloppy play, wrong decisions and errors!

EJ has a lot to answer for, but a lot of those players also need to have a look in the mirror. Whilst EJ selection policy is questionable he doesn’t physically make a player drop a ball, miss a pass, cross in the lineout and go offside!

One step forward last week, three steps back this week!

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The whole set up just feels wrong at the moment.
SCW made an astute point in saying that Jones and the players haven’t really got the WC final out of their systems or looked at why they failed collectively. It may be too late for an inquest now but their is a parallel between japan and this 6N in that we have played like a World Class team only once in the whole tournament.
I looked at the players today and they just seemed to be playing off the hoof with no real plan or strategy and no enthusiasm.
I ‘ve said it many times now but I genuinely think Jones should go and lets see if someone else can enthuse this group.

Totally agree Acee on SCW comments. We just can’t seem to maintain one level and there are continual ‘yo yo’ performances from certain players. Last week BV looked back to 80% of the old Billy…this week he seemed annonymous for large parts of the game. Ben Youngs the same…it’s as if this team can only pull out a big performance when no one gives them a chance and they need to dig to the core of the earth to motivate themselves. Its is, as you say, a parrallel form the 2019 WC. Massive game v NZ then complete opposite v SA….Same as last week v France and this week v Ireland.

Take nothing away from Ireland, they showed they wanted it more and they bossed the game in every area. England on the other hand seemed to roll into the game complacent off the back of the France win no doubt EJ convincing them all week ‘ we are back lads, nothing to worry about’.

France v Wales – WOWZERRSSS. What a game.

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I think you could be right – albeit not fo a slam as France lost to England! Scotland seem to only be able to pull an all round convincing peformance together when they really have to get themselves bang up for a game – and that is usually against England! Apart from some pride and proof they are moving in the right direction, I just can’t seem them truly bringing it to France. I expect France to get the bonus point but whether they get the margin needed of 20 points (I think) will really be down to if Scotland stay with them for 80mins

So what are thoughts on the 6N overall? I actually really enjoyed it; plenty of drama, lots of running rugby – at times chaotic, but at least it was a million miles away from the borefest of the Autumn Nations Cup!

Credit to Wales, no one gave them a chance pre tournament but they dug in and apart from 10mins of meltdown against France they would have secured the GSlam. Would they have deserved it is debatable due to some serious strokes of fortune along the way (not their fault by the way) but I think every grand slam, and WC win, needs fortune to favour the brave along the way. What I felt they did well was play what was in front of them, so if there was an opportunity to capitalise on during the game they would.

France will be bitterly dissapointed. They are on the right path but they still show signs of that French mentality to start losing their cool if the pressure is on. If they fix that, and I suspect they will as its already much better, they will be the ones to watch!

I think a bit too much has been made of Ireland’s win over England, and I feel Ireland still have a long way to improve if they are to push beyond QFs in a WC. Yes they schooled England but, and I hate to say this, this current England team are now quite easy to beat. Teams just need to get them off their game, make them chase the game and England seem to play into the hands of the oppo and hand them the game by their own compounding errors when in attacking phases, and their atrocious discipline that just concedes territory time and time again.

Scotland have proven they can show more consitancy, I am still not convinced of the hype from pundits. Only time will tell.

England – I could go on all day but bored of it now. Let’s see what this RFU ‘brutally honest’ review kicks up!

Italy – arrivederci

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It was a real Curate’s egg of a tournament! We had some scintillating Rugby, controversial (stupid?) officiating,a resurgent Scotland,dismal and deluded England, Pivac going from busted flush to national hero and a truly excellent last game to ice the cake.
Speaking personally, enjoyed would be the wrong word. Absorbing and puzzling in equal measure to my way of thinking.
Hopefully the other three home nations can build on what they have laid down this Spring. As for you know who in the white shirts, God only knows. i suspect the “in depth and brutally honest analysis” of jones and the players performances will be washed as white as a Red Rose shirt and Jones will be with us all the way to France in ’03.
There is something truly rotten in the heart of HQ at the moment. I just hope the RFU realise just how fed up many England fans are, not just with Jones but the smug,safe “we’re alright Jack” attitude and approach of certain players. If not ,they are risking a permanent fracturing of the bond between team and fans imo.
So, anyone fancy picking their lions squad to see how closely we all agree on personnel?

You know I think I’d have to give this some more thought. It is not as easy as I thought it would be that I generally find post six nations. Also we have had no sight of how SA are shaping up post WC win, I don’t even know how many of their WC squad are still likely to be included!

There is also the conundrum of do you exclude a number of English players based on form, or do we think Gatland will simply get more out of them and being in a different environment bring them back to form (mainly talking abou the Sarries guys)?

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Okay so having watched a bit of domestic rugby since the 6N here is the start of my Lions squad members – still a few places up for grabs but these would be the ones I would defo include (and expect Gatland to pick most!). Despite Englands poor 6N, I have still included players I think can perform in the right set up and who were, in my opinion, not part of the England problems!

As you can see I have included a few English who did not play a part in the 6N as I think they will be the type of players Gatland wants against the saffas. For me the areas of concern is centres and scrum half. Bar George North I don’t think there were any stand out peformers at centre or scrum half in the 6N. Not to say those I have picked played badly, but for me they just done what was expected and nothing exeptional.

Back three
L Williams, S Hogg, J May, A Watson , LR Zamitt

Centres
G North, R Henshaw, J Davies, P Idogwu, G Ringrose

Fly Half
D Biggar, J Sexton, F Russell

Scrum Half
C Murray, G Davies, A Price

Back Row
H Watson, T Curry, T Falatau, S Underhill, S Simmonds, J Navidi, CJ Stander, J Tuperic

Locks
AW Jones, J Gray, M Itoje, T Beirne, J Ryan, J Launchbury

Front Row
K Owens, K Sinkler, WJones, R Sutherland, T Furlong, C Healy, G Turner

Thoughts??

Interesting. I’d pretty much go along with the bulk of that squad although whether Gatland would risk credibility by dropping Farrell is open to debate. I can see him being in the mix simply because he is who he is.
A couple of left field swaps for me: I’d find a place for Dave Ewers in there as his size and power could be vital against the Saffers and i’d get Marler in too. He’s a character, never takes a backward step and is Furlong excepted, possibly the best scrummager available to Gatland.
A bit harsh on Slade and Odogwu is a BIG call but it would be great for England if he went and did well. It would also show fast Ed up which is never a bad thing in my book!

I thought Marler had stood down from international rugby due to new baby arriving, otherwise agree he would be picked. I was debating on Slade, he potentially could be a swap for Ringrose. I don’t think we have seen consistency from Slade at international level, but again that is not always his fault as I don’t think we see the best from him with Faz @ 12.

I really hope Odogwu is on the plane and has a blinding tour to slap egg on EJs face.

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Yes, you never know with big Joe. I reckon he was bored with EJ’s micro management and didn’t fancy a month of it day in, day out. He’s “Marmite” but he’s a clever bloke who knows his own mind.
I think a text from Gatland would do the trick. It would probably be his last hurrah as a Lion too.
I put Slade in because I think he was another who suffered because England were crap. I take your point though. he’s never set the world alight at this level so perhaps he should stay at Exeter.

On Farrell – and wanted to debate this separately – I just don’t think on current form, and with those available to pick from, he will be on the tour.

Looking at Faz’s international career deeper I really do think him being played as a 12 has taken his potential in the wrong direction. I have been a fan of Faz for a long time; ok he is not your Finn Russell/Cipriani type that many like to see but he used to have a bit more zip about him and was more in the Sexton mould of doing the basics amost flawlessly but also able to conjour up moments of (measured) magic and control the game from 10. He just doesn’t have the same impact at 12 and I think it has now taken its toll on his international career – that and being captain.

Part of him being played at 12 is kind of by default of a) EJs wanting to have both Ford/Farrell in the team and b) apart from Tuilagi who is rarely fully fit we have not had a breakthrough 12 for some years now…and now we do have some potentials it’s all a bit too little too late, unless of course Farrell is either axed or moved to 10 and Ford is surplus.

I don’t have the stats in front of me but from memory England best recent peformances have been with Faz at 10 and Tui at 12? Now you could argue Tui is the real reason for that but I would argue that it’s because Faz feels more natural at 10 and simply plays better there!!

Don’t get me wrong I did feel he put in some shifts in the 6N and you cannot question his heart and drive, but it was often all too laboured and he was not even getting the basics right often; passing to hand, tackling, kicking out of hand, and generally finding the right runnining lines. It all just looked like he was trying too hard.

Farrell was out of form in this 6N. Certainly partly because Sarries hadn’t played and I don’t think that he will go on tour because of it. I really don’t think that he is a good captain and don’t think that this has helped his game either. Really odd that Sarries have just made him captain too.

And on the team, really think that Harris will be picked in the centre. On really good form for club and country. Suspect that one of George or LCD will go too as hooker is not a strong position at the moment.

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So, it’s official. EJ is still at the helm and everyone learned a lot of lessons “going forward”
DM suggested a discussion centered on Farrell jnr, which is a great idea. How about we do that then a similar exercise on the RFU and Jones?

I didn’t really expect EJs to be sacked, there just doesn’t seem to be any real worthy replacements. I hope they really did give him a grilling though and (try) to bring him back into the land of reality. I also hope that, even with his stubborn ways, he will eat some humble pie and change up things and stop with blind loyalty…let’s hope he wants one final swansong and realises he has been wrong on a lot of things.

Hope being the trivial word…..

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On that point, who should Jones pick for the Summer tour? ( Those who may get picked for the Lions included as we don’t have a crystal ball).

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So Lions……..thoughts?? Here is mine in no particular order….and no bias

Jonny May unlucky not to go. Despite a relatively quite 6N, he is still world class IMO and probably victim to not getting the service he needed in the 6N. Watson suffered the same but he has credit in the bank with Gats and can also cover FB.

I would have had CJ Stander, Navidi or Underhill over Jack Conan.

Front row looks a little lightweight. I would have liked to have seen Healy for his scrummaging (even if for only 40/50mins in a test) and I think Sinkler will be stinging not being picked. He has unfinished business with the Saffas. I think Mako is lucky to get a call up – average 6N and not playing any top flight rugby.

Suprised to see Iain Henderson and/or Jonny Hill over Jack Ryan. Okay Ryan didn’t have the best 6N, but he is better than the other two! Jonny Hill I think is a bit of a liability! Suspect Launchbury would have been on the plane if not for his unlucky injury.

Bundi Aki?? Did he play any 6N games?? I don’t think he did. Suspect he is there for his ballast and may not have been if North had stayed fit.

Farrell – damned if you do, damned if you don’t! I just hope the tour reignites something in him and he gets back to some level of form.

Sexton very unlucky. IMO he is still the best FH in the NH when on his game, and he proved in the 6N he can still pull the strings at the top level. Assuming Murray is the starting No 9 I thought Sexton would be there for the 9/10 axis they have.

Simmonds – time to shine ginge

To me it looks like we are going for a quick style of play with accurate kicking to pull the big saffas around the park. I can see the logic as trying to match their physicality could neuter our ability to play rugby and lead to a pile up of injuries but, the centres seem unbalanced,with not enough creativity and like you DM, I’m amazed that May hasn’t got a place in the squad.
Daly and Mako. Daly I can JUST about understand but Mako was shocking in the 6N, had a dodgy ankle and has gone backwards scrum wise. I wonder if he would have gone had Marler been available (not quite sure why he isn’t tbh).
Re Faz, he was always going to be in there. I’m more surprised at Lawes making the cut and I agree that big Joe would have been a better bet had he not been injured.
Sam Simmonds, grab whatever opportunities come your way, play out of your skin and show Ed up for the one eyed, lacklustre clod he is fast becoming!

Centre is an area of concern. There was no real stand out centres in the 6N. George North was probably the best but I still don’t think he is a natural No 13, and anyway he is injured. It’s a shame J Davies didn’t manage to get back up to speed/form as IMO him and Tuilagi have been the only real World Class centres produced by the home nations for a few years now.

Marler stood down from International rugby due to new baby arrival I believe. I very much suspect he has had dialog with Gatland and maybe just said ‘don’t waste your breath’ and so Gats didn’t even bother sending him a letter. I get the impression (and not getting all deep) Marler struggles with his mental health and is probably pretty open about it behind the scenes with the coaches.

May is very unlucky I would put him ahead of Josh Adams and Van de meuw. I can see why Zammit is there; whilst he lacks the experience of May, that can also be a good thing as he is carrying little scar tissue and his naivity may allow him to not feel the pressure as much…it will go one of two ways! I suspect, everyone fit, the starting back three for the tests would be Hogg, Watson, Williams. I’m actually a fan of Williams…he’s a bit of a hard character, defends very well and is deceptively quick and quite a wiley runner who can be hard to get hands on.

I still think Cian Healy should have been there…if SA adopt the same tactic as they did against England with getting their starting front row to empty the tank in the first half and swap all three at half time, I would want Healy to be there to empty his tank in the first half to attempt to stop SA gaining dominance (and the favour of the ref) in the scrum.

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Anyone else see the Quins/Wasps game? Mike Brown – what was he thinking! Could have took the guys eye out! What a sad way to see off your Quins career. Part of me is sad for him but you just cannot do that sh…t anymore.

I didn’t see it but yes, it’s a shame that he will be remembered for doing his “mad Mike” impression rather than his loyalty and consistency for ‘quins and his ability in an England shirt.
Re the Lions, are they getting too much money or are the critics living in the past? (Corinthian spirit, pride in the shirt ,etc)

Welcome Indy 500! Nice to have a new face (albeit I cannot see you). This site used to be very active with blogs after most weekends or big matches but the guys running it seem to have moved onto other things (and I hope not due to any ill health). It would be great to get the site up and running again with regular threads and topics to discuss.

I’m happy the homepage is still semi active as it’s good to chat rugby!

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So, Edward wants to “unearth some energetic new talent for the National team” That’ll be the same talent that every Rugby fan in England has been talking about for the last year then so it shouldn’t prove too hard to do.
How typical of Jones to phrase what is a given in a way that makes him seem like an alchemist,sage and genius all in one.
How many of the players he chooses will be two cap wonders when his English Lion contingent return to blighty remains to be seen……………

Hah yeah same old EJ, making out like he has just come up with a lightbulb moment. Question is would he be saying this if there was a Lions tour?? Seems he has a history of only channging new things when his hand is forced by injuries, banned players or Lions Tours!

Gutted Odogwu has picked up an inury that looks like it will sideline him for a while so we won’t be seeing him given a chance.

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I’d be willing to bet he will select some utter new, left field players rather than pick the people that have been touted for so long…I’d almost put money on there being a player that hasn’t played a minute senior rugby!

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Amazing drama at Wasps, anyone think Tom Willis might have played his way into EJs thoughts with that hat trick performance?

He has to be in with a shout. Drama also at Tigers v Bears. I know the ref was working to the law with the sub down as tactical, but come on – Pat Lamb didn’t want him going on to risk further injury for the upcoming games but as soon as he found out they would be down to 13 men back tracked very quickly. I think the ref should have saw sense and not let Afoa back on personally. Dirty tricks

Are there any admins on here still? Really wish the content and articles could be reintroduced, particularly now there’s internationals and Lions on the horizon..I would be willing to write a couple if that is feasible?

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I think that Hutch used to run it and I’m pretty sure that he is still active on Superbru, which is a jointly run website, but quite what happened we don’t know as from March last year the articles just stopped.

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Yeah, seen him on Superbru but it’s a shame this site has been abandoned. Was hoping someone might be able to invite guest articles to give us things to debate/discuss

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Hi gang – so thoughts on the prem semi finals?? Quins – wow. Unbelievable. I text my mate at half time saying ‘this is a massacre’ he replied ‘keep believing’…..must have known something I didn’t.

Exeter showed their champions credentials and experience after a few scares of recent weeks – albeit still came from behind in both scares to win. I think they might be a step too far for Quins next week.

It’s a really tough call. As you say Exeter have been here before but ‘quins run it from anywhere approach and M Smith just might swing it their way.
Whoever wins it should be a thoroughly absorbing game.
Anyone have any views on how the denuded lions will fare against a rapid and raring Japan who have nothing to lose and a lot to gain?

I can’t even think who will actually be available for the Lions? Don’t think much will be taken from the game, merely a warm up. Could be fun to watch though

I see injury has hit Tuilagi again. Surely EJ now needs to focus on unearthing a couple of new centres so that one of them can become a regular (and that’s me assuming/hoping we have seen the back of playing at 10 at 12)

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Definitely time to put Manu out to pasture at England level.
He’s done some great things in a white shirt but not for a few years now.
It’s ironic that his style of play is now more of a hinderance to his fitness and he’s the wrong side of thirty.
I’d like to see Lawrence and Marchant given a go. Neither of them are real blockbusters but there is enough physicality and pace between them to see if they can do it at this level.
Slade will definitely be back in the mix but as you say, lets not pick Faz as a 12 anymore.

So the warm up game has cost the Lions pretty dear. I must admit , the Blossoms looked especially fired up for that game and put in a lot of hefty hits. The Saffers must be delighted that such influential players are out of contention. I wonder, is Tipuric a potentially bigger loss than Alun Wynn if what we have been told about Gatland’s quick game plan is true?

It’s unbelievably bad luck, you couldn’t have made it up!

Quins!!! Wow what a turnaround season for them. Backed up the win against Bristol what an awesome final. Quins need to kick on from this and not let it be a one season wonder and end up back in mid table. Dombrant surely has to be the next regular Eng No 8 (assuming EJ still won’t pick Simmonds). Dombrandt has the potential and makings to be a complete No 8 and world class.

Well. Ed has taken the first step by adding Dombrandt and Smith to his squad. Let’s hope it’s not just one of his superficial nods to popularism as they both should have at least ten caps each now anyway.
Simmonds and Dombrandt in the same squads going forwards would give England a plan B should things need altering and neither player seems particularly injury prone , unlike the increasingly fragile BV.

Lions team first test….thoughts?

Hogg; A Watson, Daly, Henshaw, Van Der Merwe; Biggar, Price; W Jones, Cowan-Dickie, Furlong, Itoje, AW Jones (capt), Lawes, Curry, Conan.

Replacements: Owens, Sutherland, Sinckler, Beirne, H Watson, Murray, Farrell, L Williams.

I think it pretty much picks itself really – couple of marginal calls as to who starts and finishes but i think our bench is not going to give any quality away for those they intend to replace at some point – well bar Farrell who still seems off his game.

Like many things of late, the game was a strange affair.
The TMO calls were crucial for the Lions who could have lost by at least twenty points imo.
I can well see the ‘boks levelling the series on Saturday. They will be raging and for all Gatland’s nous and the quality of the players he has, I just can’t see the Lions living with the sheer physicality that SA will bring.

Agree Lions got the rub of the green, and I think the pundits have been getting a bit overexcited about the second half as if we completely blew them off the park. I do think we can live with them physically and we have the edge on fitness levels. My concern is we seem very limited in attack and just don’t seem to have much flare between 9 – 13 so our back three are seeing very little ball.

Of course Gatland can only pick what is available to him but I don’t feel there was any stand out 12 or 13 in the Six Nations. George North was probably the best but struck by injury.

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Thoughts on the second test??

Couple of decisions went Lions way last week, couple went Boks this week. It does really frustrate me though that with all the technology and a TMO such big decisions are still called wrong. Kolbe clearly a red card by the letter of the law (not that I totally agree with the laws). Fact Murray stuck out a hand to cushion his fall is irrelavent. Am clearly was not in control of the ball and that is not through Lions tinted glasses…

Anyway – decisions aside…

I felt that we matched them in the forwards but Boks clearly stepped up a level from last week, Lions didn’t. We are massively lacking anything creative in attack and I am really struggling to see any changes that will fix this. Price is a faster more attacking No 9 but when he is passing to either Biggar or Farrell that negates what he brings. Oh how Finn Russell is missed right now.

Hogg has been left wanting again at the very top level. Surely Williams comes in?

We need to go for broke next week, I’d be tempted to start Simmonds again just to add some more pace. I think we have enough size in the pack to drop a little weight at No 8.

Not very confident for next week, just don’t see how we can unlock SA. They will be more confident and have shown full match fitness now.

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I’m not buying this “some went for them, some went for us” narrative. The decisions last week were consistent with what we’d see every week in a rugby game. Some forward passes called and missed, some tackles deemed high or borderline, some offsides penalised, some not. This week, 2 Kolbe incidents were both clear reds, based on what we have seen from officiating this season, and Faf should have at least been penalised for high and no arms on Murray.

The referring of the match in general was poor, the break down was a complete mess and players on both sides were allowed to get away with not rolling away, players couldn’t contest the ruck. Watson gets pinged for contact in the air yet Kolbe gets away from causing Murray to land on his face? Just really turned me off the match; I can’t enjoy the spectacle because the officiating is so bad. What is it with SH referees?

Re AM…i don’t know if you need control anymore, just downward force? Maybe wrong.

I think the forwards have been good but we have been far too slow to the breakdown. This was clear in the warm up games yet we have Conan and Lawes in the back row? Watson and Curry should start imo.

I don’t think Farrell has really had a chance; Biggar has started twice and neither game have we seen anything resembling a backline move/attack.

Agree Hogg has been found wanting, as has Duhan. Hoping for some changes and a consistent approach to officiating for a good final test.

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Yeah suppose you are right Jake on reflection of the Kolbe incidents. Clearly the politics and mind games have influenced the refs – South African TMO under pressure from his calls last week that some say because he didn’t want to be accused of bias. This week some clear calls that he dismissed.

AM -I am sure you still need control. So his first touch in normal play would be called as a knock on (as I understand it) so the fact he eventually put downward pressure on the ball is irrelavent as it’s been knocked on – as I think it was his other forearm that eventually put the downward pressure ?? 99% sure…

Anyway the Lions were not good enough yesterday. Of course if Kolbe was carded it would have made a difference, but come on we want to be winning 15v15 as otherwise you always have that shadow of ‘well you only beat us with a man advantage.

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I didn’t even realise Junker was still TMO. How the organisers botched that I have no idea.

Fafs hit is suspect too, high and no arms. So poor.

Yeah it’s a weird one, they changed the rules so that even downward pressure with a part of the arm counts. Seems a bit strange.

But yeah, I agree. And news of Duane coming back will boost SA further. What changes do we need?

Williams is an obvious one, and I would give Adams a go too.

I’m struggling to see any changes that will make a real difference to be honest, I think we just need to execute a better game plan whoever is on the field! It’s not the strongest Lions team in terms of depth. I have said this in previous posts that my confidence in the tour took a dip after the six nations. I felt the standard of rugby was ok but all teams a bit hit and miss and no real stand out players and most names picked themselves for the Lions with only a few suprises.

I’d defo bring Williams in likely I’d put him on the wing. Whilst Hogg was suspect at FB under the high ball if we can execute a better attacking game you know his pace will have defenders guessing. Replacing him at FB and bringing Adams in or shuffling others i.e. Daly to wing not really seeing a clear gain.

Adams is a class finisher, but how often have our wingers seen the ball across the test games?

To me our areas of concern is that 9/10/12 channel it just lacks cohesion and threat when we are getting quick ball. Personally I’d have called Sexton up for injury cover for Finn Russell. Oh how next weeks game is calling out for a big Sexton performance. I totally get it he is suspect to injury/concussion etc and would be targetted but if he is fit (or 80%) he is still the best No 10 of the home nations in my opinion.

Again I am sure I said this previously that I would have taken Sexton on tour even if it meant you might only get one or two test games out of him. This tour has been so diluted you may aswell had him in there and just kept him fit and then roll him out for the big games.

Other possible changes to consider…..I’d probably punt for Navidi or Watson replacing Lawes at 6 and then bit of a big call but have Lawes/Itoje in the second row. Nothing against AWJ but it did look like he was off the pace a bit on the weekend and is likely playing through the pain barrier.

Don’t look like Sinckler will be playing this week he’s been cited for biting….fool

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I saw the video of the “incident” and genuinely can’t make anything out so not sure how Sinks will be banned, unless someone has seen something else?

The fact that he is the only one to be cited from that game…well, lost for words really.

Agree with you re squad depth; regardless of the form of some of the players coming into the tour, you read down the squad list and it doesnt scream star quality.

I would actually go Watson-Williams-Adams across the back-3; Hogg is talent but the SA gameplan is clear. They will be sending up high balls all day and we cant have a weak link at the back. The three players above are all class under the high ball so for that reason alone I would take Hogg and DVDM out.

Do you think Biggar keeps his place? I am biased but I cant see what Biggar has done to warrant being named starting 10 from the beginning of the tour.

The breakdown has been such an issue this whole tour, I think the forwards are too slow to get there. And also agree, AWJ comeback is great but I cant help but feel that he’s not giving 100% due to injury.
Henderson and Beard were good in the warm ups so deserve a chance.

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Hah yeah forgot about Beard even being on the tour! In fact I am struggling to recall the entire tour squad given the dilution of the mid week games!

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I think between you, yourself and Jake have summed up this incarnation of the lions and the tour.
I made some similar points on “Rugby Analyst” channel but got the impression that criticising anything to do with the team or the tour was tantamount to Rugby treason.
The whole tour has been farcical imo.
Gatland has to make changes for saturday but the lack of quality in depth is truly disturbing and i can’t see anything other than a series win for SA, especially now they have Vermeulen back on board.

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I’ve watched those videos throughout the tour, found them interesting. And would say the overriding sentiment in the comments is one of positivity, but maybe lacking constructive criticism for players who imo haven’t performed to the level necessary…maybe I’m just overly pessimistic.

The first test was won but it was a close game, with the Lions maybe lucky with some of the decisions. The backs lacked any sort of cohesion and I couldn’t remember one flowing move in which SA were stretched. The forwards contained the Boks well but any team would struggle to do this consistently.

The second test result was much clearer. The short comings in the backs was exposed, a complete lack of creativity and cohesion, with the only tactic being the high ball with DVDM in particular unable to properly chase and recover. The forwards were unable to gain the same ascendancy, which is fine because SA are a big physical unit, but again the breakdown was lost too often and turnovers were too easy to come by for the Bokke.

I dont think complete changes – ie Russell, LRZ etc – are needed. We can still win the tour but need more precision and quality in the backs, and more dynamism in the forwards (so many buzz words I know). We have been too slow to the breakdown so maybe Watson or Simmonds in for No 8, and give George a start; the lineout is a key area which needs to be 100%.

Farrell comes in with maybe Aki for physicality. Get Williams and Adams into the back 3 to command the high ball.

Win the test and nothing else will matter.

Vermeulen returning is a worry, only saving grace is he won’t be fully match fit but if he puts in a hefty 40mins then that will be a weapon for the Boks.

Changes will be made but I don’t think they will make a noticable difference, but a slight improvement will be welcomed. I think it is too late in the day for trying clever tactical changes (and I honestly don’t think we have the personnel to switch things up) and so without stating the obvious – changes or no changes – the Lions ultimately need to play the game of their lives and leave nothing out there. I do think we can beat the Boks but we will need every player putting in an 8+ out of 10 performance with four or five players putting in MOTM worthy shifts. We also need a fair reffing game….

I supect it will be another ugly affair all the same!

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Lions for 3rd test
British and Irish Lions: Williams; Adams, Henshaw, Aki, Van der Merwe; Biggar, Price; Jones, Owens, Furlong, Itoje, A Wyn Jones (c), Lawes, Curry, Conan

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Vunipola, Sinckler, Beard, Simmonds, Murray, Russell, Daly

Crumbs, what’s Watson done to deserve being dropped? VDM had a nightmare game – terrible in the air and a red card waiting to happen last game. Agree with Williams and Adams coming in. Not convinced by Owens at all. His lineout throwing was pretty awful when he came on. George and LCD for me.

So for me
Williams, Adams, Harris, Henshaw or Farrell (still undecided whether to have a 2nd play maker and keep SA pinned back), Watson, Biggar, Murray, Jones, George, Furlong, AWJ, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Conan.
LCD, Vunipola, Sinckler, Beirne, Simmonds, Price, Russell or LRZ (depending on my first choice 15) and Daly.
Pace and handling off the subs bench is the only way I can see the Lions winning this one.

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Yeah surpised Watson got the chop. Okay he made a couple of mistakes but he surely gets ahead of VDM? Tight call between Faz and Biggar very little between them. If Farrell was coming into it with more form and top level game time I suspect he would have been No 1 from the start…but we cannot ignore the fact he was below par in the last 6N and was also Captain of the England team that could not find a way to win against the Boks when it truely mattered in 2019. These things can stick unfortunately.

Hopefully these changes galvanise the team and its do or die – few faces no doubt eaager to prove they should have started the previous test and an opportunity to be heroes.

A small apology to make. I thought that this was your proposed selection DM. Hadn’t realised that the teams had been announced. Been a long day in the office!
Not sure how Beard got in. I guess a big body to battle the boks up front. Poor old Launchbury sitting at home looking at this and wondering what should have been.

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Wow, just wow.

VDM makes 1 carry for 1 metre in the 2nd test, compared to Watsons 3 carries for 17 metres (including a clean break and 3 defenders beaten) and VDM keeps his place. Add a lack of dominance under the high ball and we have a weak link in the back-3.

I’m not convinced on the logic DM; if the WC final counts against Faz then the semi final counts against Biggar. Not sure there has been a worse test match than that drab affair. I dont expect it matters much though, the game plan is clearly unchanged for the 3rd test and all Gatland needs Biggar to do is put up kicks…which Farrell could do better btw but I wont keep going on about it. Will Russel be able to effect change? I dont know, but a potential finishing backline of Price – Russell – Henshaw – Daly isnt half bad.

The pack is fine apart from Owens; I really dont think he is on the same level as LCD or George. Bokkes gamplan is built around set piece so this should have been a priority but I dont think Owens will delivery.

Lions are lucky that Faf and SDT are out injured but the Bokke team still looks formidable, with the back-3 which casued so many problems still taking the field.

Predictions?

I’m not saying the SF was the only reason but it may have had some bearing on Gatlands final call….anyway like I say not too much between them at the moment – but I will add i’d have Faz over Biggar when he has better form.

ohhh interesting i didnt know Faf and SDT were out. That does add a bit more twist. Vermulen might be back with the squad but how match fit? So their backrow is a little understrengthed.

F it i am calling a messy match, bit more running play and a Lions win but with the help of a controversial call that turns the game into the last quarter. You heard it here first

So Gats has made changes but are they the right ones? Like others , I think V d M is damn lucky to be in the xv and though I hate to say it, Curry is too. My B Row would have been Watson, Conan and Beirne with Curry on the bench.
I would also have gone for broke and stuck Russell in there. Yes, he’s inconsistent and suspect defensively but the Lions need a spark, a catalyst and he could be that man.

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Yeah not sure what Hamish Watson has done to not warrant a bench spot at least, and not sure how Beard has crept in there – I think he had one start in the warm ups?

Anyway without sounding like an old record player, the changes should make some improvement but it really is down to every man from 1 – 23 putting in a serious shift and refusing to lose.

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Yeah I don’t think any of us were ever going to be 100% happy, and the criticism comes from a place of wanting to see the best Lions team take the field (granted, in our own opinion).

Big shift needed by all involved if a win is to come on Saturday. Even if Faf and SDT are missing, Reinach and Mostert arent bad replacements and the other key players (Le Roux, Am, Pollard, Etzebeth) are all still present.

If we are going to persist with kicking then it needs to be even more accurate and the chasers have to reclaim the ball, not just tap back. Variety of kicks are also needed, to keep the SA defence guessing.

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Whatever happens I just hope we see a fairly reffed game (so no excuses for the losing team etc) and that the Lions put in a peformance and get some points on the board. I can take a loss if that is the end result, but often it is the manner of a loss that hurts more – like last week getting nilled in the second half.

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]Whatever the outcome, the Lions have to try and up the tempo. As Courtney Lawes said in midweek, another scrappy arm wrestle with more stops/starts than the average Bus route will play right into the hands of SA.

Ohhhh chaps I am truely gutted. Game was there for the taking, well in the first half defintely. I think we can say this whole tour has been a ‘tour of two halves’ when looking at all the tests matches. I just can’t work out what happened in that second half! It was if psychologically the Lions felt they just could not win, given they left so many points out there in the first half.

What are the thoughts on the ref? I am losing the grasp of what is the law anymore and I don’t mean to be sour grapes but it did seem a lot of big calls went against the Lions in key moments of the game e.g. being close to the SA line, penalties in kickable distance etc.

Take your hat off Finn Russell – stepped up. Shame for Biggar but I think Russell was the difference between us even being in the game with a shout. Seeing his play now makes me want Marcus Smith to be England No 1 moving forward.

Lawes had another big game, horrible for him that he was pinged for the game deciding penalty. Liam Williams will also no doubt have a few sleepless nights after this game with his butchered overlap and if I am being slightly critical I think he committed himself to quickly on Kolbe for the try – I think he should have try to marshall him into touch rather than the diving tackle and hope some cover came back as there were a few players tracking back.

Overall not a great tour and SA were the better side across the three/four tests and ultimately found ways to win – albeit really ugly and boring.

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Putting the overall result aside for a moment , I totally agree about the confusion refs seem to be in at the moment.
It looks and feels like changes are being made for changes sake and everyone is struggling to keep up. For example, when Russell was pinged for a high on Kolbe, the South African was already almost down on his knees, making him about four feet tall at the moment of impact. That is NOT a high tackle, it’s just body position and it’s this blanket refusal to acknowledge such things that are slowly neutering the game.
Back to yesterday and the tour overall. For me, the Lions have lacked cohesion and focus throughout the whole tour. Ten minutes of good play have been quickly followed by fifteen minutes of brain fades and disunity in each of the three tests.
SA have a brutal defence which the Lions struggled to pierce in open play and they were definitely the best team overall.
Roll on the AI’s.

You’re spot on Acee with the comment around 10mins of good play followed by poor play. Kinda a reflection of the Six Nations this year, all teams guilty of inconsistency and inevitably it has fed through into the Lions.

Why oh why didn’t we take the three points on offer when it was 10-3 in the first half and then to level things up in the second! Look I love the confidence of going for the corner but we only managed to score ONCE from taking that option in the game. I get it when the change of slotting the penalty might be 50/50 but a few times they were easy 3 points as Russell had his best kicking boots…

I genuinely think if we went in at half time 13-3 up we would have won, but 10-6 you have given the Boks a lifeline and they are so good at grasping onto an opportunity like that. Again I just think mentally 10-6 had a negative impact on the Lions, like some belief drained from them.

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Similar deflated feeling. If we are being fair, this isn’t the best SA side ever and we had the squad and the time needed to prepare and win but couldn’t.

The reffing on the whole has been so poor. Lawes getting pinged was correct by the letter of the law but not one penalty had been given previously for not rolling away, and there were plenty of opportunities to do so. Similarly poor penalties given for holding on when the defending player is clearly not supporting their own weight.

We’ve seen more recently the Russell “high tackle” passed off as a rugby incident and Matheiu deemed it as such at first, but then the SA tmo gets involved and it becomes a penalty.

Poor reffing aside I think the Lions paid for poor squad selection and uninspiring tactics. We all said, looking at the team sheet for test 3, that it lacked real WC talent on some positions and it showed. The changes gatland made didn’t really swing the game and it was only an injury that forced his hand with Russell…how daft they look now after finn got the attack moving forward more in 5 minutes than biggar managed in the previous 160. Was this just Finn, or could smith and Farrell have achieved similar improvement? Finns goal kicking was also quality.

Williams and Adams didn’t seem to cope much better under the high ball and the non try is almost unforgivable. Adams similarly cut in and didn’t use Williams a play before as well. Actually thought VDM played quite well and made good metres cutting back against the defence.

Forwards acquitted themselves well and the SA looked pretty flustered in the first half.

Kolbes try was great; Farrell looking less daft for missing the tackle in the WC…seems it happens to everyone.

A lot being made about not taking the points but I don’t mind that so much. It would likely have led to another draw and who wants that. All it would be done is highlighted the lack of ambition of both teams; both happier not to lose which is how they both played. A tour to forget.

In the end Gatlands persistence with picking conservatively cost him. He previously got away with it, managing the team over the line with tactics and luck. It ran out this time.

All I ask for next tour is a head coach who isn’t associated with a national setup. We saw in all three tours that Gatland was happier picking players he knew than picking the best available. I’d happily cheer a team knowing it’s the best we have to offer compared to one that had solely been selected because they can play the style of play the coach knows how to coach.

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So valid points there and agree with most.

When you say not the best SA ever, suppose depends what you are comparing too! It’s pretty much the same team that won the WC, and whilst their style of play is negative they are REALLY good at it, and you can’t deny they have a back line that takes its opportunities when presented. Purists may argue its the perfect side; squeeze and bully you up front and then cut you apart when the opportunity is presented….

But that said, agree we had the squad that could/should have won the tour and agree a mess in selection and tactics seemed to hold the team back

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Very true. Pretty much the exact same squad, strengthened by the seemingly endless supply of monster props.

One shortcoming is their style of play. I am all for playing hard, big hits, intensity, but they also rely on “the niggle” and constant riling of opponents. We have seen these sorts of antics penalised in the 6N. Would they get away with as much with Barnes, Owens or Doyle officiating the match? I don’t think so.

Anyway, lets see how they go in the Rugby Champs and the Autumn Internationals.

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Hi everyone – seems a bit quiet after the Lions….anyway thought I’d start a subject. Thoughts on changing the tactical subs protocol to avoid injuries? I think it should be changed but not to the extreme of only subbing for injuries. I’d suggest limiting subs to 3 or 4 and any others only due to injury/HIA etc.

Not all substitues are tactical, sometimes you genuinely have someone who is totally gassed and that could be dangerous leaving them on if they are only half committing to tackles/breakdowns. You also need to allow some non injury changes to give a team a chance to try and change tactics if things are just not working, so like if someone is having a complete howeler at No 9 surely a coach should be given the opportunity to replace them??

Discuss!

For me a lot of these issues go back to the size and power of modern players, poor tackle technique, not enforcing the laws, particularly regarding the put in, which puts more pressure on the opposing scrum and makes collapsing scrums far more prevalent.
In an ideal world I would welcome this suggestion. I just don’t think it can be enforced in the modern game for all the reasons mentioned ( and probably many more).
The training of big forwards to play a fifty/sixty minute game,then being replaced by someone fresh who is equally huge and strong is dangerous and should be stopped. Either they drop weight and gain stamina or they go into Strongman competitions where no real stamina is needed. Of course coaches and tactics are also culpable in this regard, and to a certain extent, the Governing bodies, who are reactive rather than pro active.
Refereeing needs a kick up the arse too. The Lions tour was a joke in this regard and iffy refs seem to be commonplace which is ridiculous when more and more tweaks to and additions to the rule book are being introduced.
The game is a bit of a mess right now. NH clubs seem to be going for a hybrid of RU/RL, particularly in England. The SH seems split on the matter. Sa are still going for huge forwards and a power based game,NZ are standing at a distance, and the Aussies are a bit all over the place.
Back to the original point : I would say yes, if it were possible.

Thing is are the players really that much bigger and powerful than they were 10/15 years ago? I’d argue not. Just take a look back at the pack England had in 2003 and that was 18 years ago!

RUGBY IS BACK……Thoughts on the Prem opening weekend?

Sarries look like they mean business, seemed not to move out of third gear and suffocated Bristol, and that was with some first choice players missing. Thought the Leicester/Chiefs and Falcons/Quins games were brilliant. Quins backs look deadly and they have a great signing in Tomaso Allen to cover for Smith.

Down under I enjoyed seeing Australia scalp the Boks in more convicing fashion. Does make me think even moreso the Lions threw that series away in the last game! NZ much of the same cruising to a win

Nice article by Geoff Probyn about how the ring fencing of the Prem should make teams more willing to play attacking, inventive Rugby.
Interesting how that ties in with the Wallabies beating SA by largely playing the same sort of fast, running game on their terms , rather than going toe to toe in an arm wrestle.I wonder if England can or will do the same in Autumn?
Re the England squad, FIVE loose heads and not much pace or power in midfield again (Manu being the exception but we can’t keep relying on him.) I think Ed just sticks pins in a list of England qualified players……..

Anybody still on here? Wondered if it might get going again with the team selections and Autumn internationals to discuss? Where has everyone gone to get their fix now instead?

I’m still about – not found any other blogs for a fix, don’t seem to be many that are as easy to use/navigate!

I like the selection overall – bar Curry at 8 when you have Dombrandt in the Squad who is an out and out No 8. But that’s EJ for you. Radwan and May on the wings could/should cause havoc as long as they get the ball!

Premiership has been great so far, some proper entertainment

Mainly been feeding my rugby fix on the Gloucester supporters Shedweb site, which is usually pretty good although subject to going down its own rabbit hole on occasions.

Reasonably happy with the selection although I do think that it was a good time to try younger half backs starting and give them some experience. Not sure about Manu. Would just like to see him fit for a while, although I do wonder if the increasing number of “plastic” pitches in the prem are going to cause the likes of him Nowell and other injury prone players even more problems. Will he be there for the next world cup?

A slightly stubborn pick it seems doesn’t it. Lawes at 6 gives an extra carrier that Simmonds needs I think and Underhill does well too so think he would be OK in that back row, Dombrandt certainly would.

I just don’t see the need to play Curry at No8 just to give the team more options in the pack i.e. another jumper in Lawes. If you want Lawes in the squad stick him in the second row!

What is the long term benefit of giving Curry time at 8?? We have enough depth at 8, even if some may argue (not me) that BV is past his best and Simmonds will never been a top international No8 so EJs is looking towards France 2023 incase we never see BV or SS in the squad again and then we have no No8s ‘ready’ for a World Cup.

No doubt EJ will claim there is some science behind it that we all have no idea about

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I am now categorically convinced EJ is a wind up merchant….Tuilagi on the wing for this weekend….Faz at 12.

Ok i kinda get it he wants the experience of Farrell behind Smith but it’s just not the right blend. Smith is used to having a big centre outside him at Quins so this was a perfect opportunity to give him Manu outside him at the top level.

Any quick ball we get, Farrell will kill it when it reaches him and he is certainly not one to smash the gain line either.

Why oh why…..

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Took the words out of my mouth DM. Jones is just taking the pee now. He has to go. Farrell could shoot the Ref and Eddie would still pick him.Pathetic.

Hi all – thoughts on the games over the weekend? I must admit I wasn’t as tuned into the England game as I wanted to be as I’d had a few beers watching the prior games so was little glass eyed. From what I saw it was a decent enough peformance albeit I am not sure how ‘up’ for this test series the Aussies are and they are missing a few players. That said it was a win and eventually comfortable.

Ireland were impressive, I thought they would run out of steam but they managed to maintain the intensity against a strong NZ side. I think Ireland will be pushing hard for the 6N title, they seemed to have kicked on well from the last 6N and look a solid unit – and they typically always peak a year or so outside of a World Cup….so we could be looking at a back to back 6N for Ireland to then go out in the QFs again come France 2023!

Scotland battled well and they look really sharp in attack. Ultimately out powered by a very well rounded South African side. England will have a much sterner text this weekend

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Firstly, kudos to Ireland. That result did not flatter them at all. They had the Kiwis unsettled for three quarters of the game and played with intent and discipline.
Scotland came up short but not by much and are definitely building towards something. If only they had a larger pool of players and a better domestic set up.
Finally, Ed’s boys. Let”s be honest, that was as poor an Australia team as we’ve seen in a long while.
They really felt the abscence of those unavailable and it would have been much closer had they been at full strength.
For England, Steward is proving himself at this level and Smith is managing to retain his identity while being forced to stand in Farrell’s shadow by fast Ed.
Will they gain revenge over the Saffers? I don’t think so.
Curry at eight is just more jones capriciousness at the expense of the team and fans. I’d also like to see Stuart start in the front row with genge back on t’other side.
Saffers by 12-15.

I’ve managed to watch the game back (well most of it) and agree Acee the Aussies were well underwhelming and understrenghthed.

Secondly I completely agree, SA by 10-15 I think. I don’t think we will trouble them as much as Scotland did either.

South Africa have a lot of critics at the moment with their style of play but I don’t think it is totally deserved. Okay yes they like to slow it down but they also cut teams to pieces when they need to. Its very calculated rugby and like it or not they have the perfect blend of power, guile and pace across the team. Their style of play is not that different from Englands they are just much better at it!

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What a great Saturday of rugby! Well done England I didn’t see that win coming. Don’t get me wrong I didn’t think it would be a hammering but pre-match felt SA would run away with it in the last 15. It was like the Alamo in large parts of the 2nd half but England soaked it up..what a way to blood some of the young talent. I felt Marchant stepped up well him and Slade looked like they play club rugby together. Maybe time to start considering him as our 12 as we have seen yet again Tuilagi just cannot stay fit for a long period. EJ can’t keep building the team seletion around him.

If it was not a genuine enough question before the game it is now; where does Farrell fit back into the starting 15??

Still frustrates me how EJ is tinkering around with the back row. I am sure towards the end he had Simmonds and Dombrant as flankers and Curry at 8?? WFT??

Across the channel NZ losing two on the spin for how long?? I thought France would be undercooked but they looked sharp and they are gonna be a handful in the 6N. Dupont is world class.

NZ look well out of sorts (well compared to their high standard), maybe they are simply exhausted after a long test season as its no secret every team steps their game up against them? Their wild card for years has been that they tend to take a game away from the oppo in the last 15/20mins but the top tier teams are all now 80min teams. They are deffo a weaker side without B Barrett.

Great performance from Ireland, dominating the Argies to follow up last weeks nail biter v the Kiwis. They look solid, organised and can play. My favourites for next years 6N , injuries permitting.
With England , it’s all down to Jones’ capricious nature again. So many plusses from the series; Steward, Smith, Lawes as captain and re born as a rounded Blindside, Slade having his best spell of form in an England shirt, Blamire, and Quirke getting a try on his debut.
Now, the negatives: Will Jones allow the kids to continue developing or will he resort to dad’s army for next year? Who knows? Can he resist his natural inclination to try and fix what isn’t broken? The back row has become a Dog’s breakfast. We had two genuinely World class flankers who now look flat , confused and unhappy. Well done Ed. Apparently Radwan ain’t good enough after just TWO caps, we lack beef in the front row and manu looks to be past his sell by date , sadly.
Lastly, FAZ. Don’t get me started if Jones refuses to see that he is rapidly becoming one of yesterdays men.

It was interesting listening to Thomas Castaignede’s take on Englands performance on the full contact podcast. He said that the mood in France is there was nothing they saw that really worried them from England despite their win against SA. It did make sense as him and Brian Moore we basically saying that England simply could not get a foot hold in the second half and were dominated in the set piece, breakdown and maul, and 9 times out of 10 you would have conceded more points and lost.

They were not taking away anything from the doggedness of England but just saying you cannot rely on that to win you a Six Nations or a World cup and in fact we probably didn’t learn as much as some are saying from that win.

I agree to a degree, but I also think the fact that team, with lots of new faces, managed to somehow hold off the Boks and won will give them belief – as on the flips side of what they are saying above it’s unlikely you will see England dominated that way again for a full 40mins, and if one side ‘can’ do that it is SA. I suspect England would not be as bashed about like that by any of the NH teams…..but I could be wrong!

Happy New Year rugby lovers…..first question has anyone found any other blog sites that are worth a look? I tried the Gloucester shed thing but not much interesting chat….

How is everyone finding the season so far? The prem is really entertaining and I am glad (it would appear) Quins were not a one hit wonder last season. How good is Andre Esterhuizen!!! Is there any chance he could play for England if he is not in the frame for South Africa? I know he has been capped by SA but could he be eligible for England before the World Cup? Is is like the perfect 12….carries hard, offloads, tackles like a beast and wins turnover…oh and he can kick!

I’m struggling to get excited with the Heineken Cup with COVID again diluting the competition it just doesn’t seem a level playing field.

On another note I wonder who is the England star in trouble with accusations of rape!

Hi DM. Can’t help you with other blog sites, sorry. Rugby Analyst on YT is good but it’s just a “watch and post” site, not a true blog.

The Rape accusation is a bit disturbing and obscure. I know revealing any evidence prejudices a legal case but it isn’t even clear if the player is a current or ex international.

Sorry but I can’t let the latest England squad go unremarked; good to see Barbeary in the mix and Jones sticking to a more youthful group but, we still have the Faz love affair and do either Stuart or Sinckler deserve a place at the moment? I think not.

Well looks like Farrell is out of the whole 6N. I feel for him but selfishly I think this is a good opportunity for England / EJs.

I’m not a Faz hater and Farrell has been an excellent servant to England and you cannot knock his stats for club and country BUT he has not been in great form for near on 2 years and has not played any rugby since November. IMO he is not international level 12 and his game management, attack and defence has all been questionable since his drop of form and the SarriesGate.

That said you cannot single handedly blame him for Englands dire 2021 Six Nations so I don’t think him not being there will define our 6N success….will it give us a better chance?? My view is yes but its a team game so the rest need to also step up without stating the bloody obvious!

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Any thoughts on the team to face Scotland DM?
I’m genuinely surprised Atkinson didn’t start in the middle. He’s big, can play and would have taken a lot of Scottish heat off Smith who is going to be targeted by the Jocks all afternoon.
Ed has somehow managed to turn selecting Simmonds into a cause for comcern too. I really don’t know how he does it. That is a pretty lightweight Pack and I think he’s going to be living off scraps.
My prediction for the final table of the comp; Ireland, France, Wales,Scotland ,England, italy.

Well that was a painful. I actually felt our pack held their own but our backs just failed to create anything to trouble the Scots. That said I don’t think its any suprise when we have Youngs who is well past his sell by date and then bar Smith and Steward all the other backline playing out of their club positions! Well you could argue Daly is a natural centre but he has not played any top flight rugby for ages and IMO has not really shown international level quality for a few years now.

We desperately need to find a decent ball carrying 12 for the world cup…the Tuilagi boat has sailed now and Slade or Farrell are not the answer at 12 assuming Smith is now the nailed on 10. If Atkinson is the short term fix to take us to 2023 so be it.

I get it that EJ wants this interchangable ability of the squad but I am sure if you look back at all the WC winning squads they have all had players in their natural positions that they play week in, week out for their clubs.

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Ok, I’m puzzled again by Ed’s selection. Nothing against Launchbury, who is a far better player than Ewels IMO and would be in my squad every time. My puzzlement comes in guessing where he fits in. Is itoje going to be picked at 6 with JL as a Lock or will JL be covering both positions from the bench? Moreover , why bring in Chick when we have two quality eights?

What did you think of the first two games?

So Scotland again prove that beating England is their WC final! It wasn’t s pretty spectacle but I really enjoyed the game. You have to give credit to Wales for fronting up after last weeks embarrassment and showing that passion and will to win can outweigh how the teams are matched ‘on paper’. For me the reason they beat Scotland and England couldn’t was because of that extra will to win. Don’t get me wrong I am not saying England’s players turn up not wanting to win, but we just seemed a little too nice last week….. and I haven’t seen that steely look of wanting to crush the opposition in England since the 2019 WC semi final against NZ.

Was bemused why Biggar went for a drop goal with a penalty advantage and possible yellow card for the Scots, but he ho it won the game.

France/Ireland was a cracker. I didn’t expect Ireland to win once Sexton was out as I think he is a point of difference for them at the moment, but they stayed in the fight well. I thought we might see the France of old when Ireland got a second try and they implode but clearly that monkey is off their back now – so I can see France taking the Grand Slam.

Are they peaking too fast for the WC though? We’ve seen that happen with Wales and Ireland in relation to 6N vs WC.

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Yeah its so strange but when I think of teams that England struggle against its teams like Wales and Scotland…both of whom are a menace at the breakdown, spoiling (often on/beyond the limits of the laws) any good ball and as you say DM, England are too nice and seem to let it happen. Scotland didnt get much good ball this weekend and I put this down to Wales being Wales at the breakdown. Scotland also seem unwilling to play the percentages, trying to play in the wrong parts of the field (so cliche) and giving Wales penalties within kicking distance. A few poor kicks from hand also gave Wales lineout in good field position. A good game for a neutral though, I thought Scotland were lucky to only get one yellow card – Hogg for deliberate knock on and Graham for the tip tackle – but for some reason the conversation has centred around why Berry was harsh v Scotland? Nah.

And agree, what was Biggar thinking…so much space for a chance at a try and an almost definite yellow card if not…another lucky break for Scotland.

France at home, on current form, were seemingly too much for Ireland. Even if Sexton was on I’m not sure whether it wouldve made a difference in the result. France down to their 3rd/4th choice centre combination and yet Moafana and Fickou looked connected and solid – Fickou has to be one of, if not, the best centres in the world…can do everything. Mack Hansen take a bow. Winger playing wing…who wouldve thought it.

Thoughts on England? I was pleased, though not so much when Youngs came on. The tempo instantly dropped and gameplan reverted back to kick territory…I get that EJ wants to simulate certain scenarios in game but surely trying to break a tiring Italy side is equally as valuable. Still think the midfield balance isnt right, I dont like Slade at 12 – no one straightens and holds the defence.

Shame to see Nowell go off injured, was lively at the start.

Things just seem a little unsettled/unsure with the England team at the moment. It’s not all EJs fault as, despite having a massive player pool, this doesn’t always guarantee they are international quality. His tinkering, whilst annoying, is kind of reflective of the players he has available.

It’s quite obvious we are missing players such as May, Watson, Launchbury, Manu, Lawes and IMO massively missing Underhill. I think him and Curry just work so well together. Underhill brings a different ferocity in defense and he is just a nuisance and has improved his ball carrying.

I was gutted for Nowell as we need our best wingers fit. Malins is a good player but not an international winger, and Daly…well what can I say.

So I think our past two performances have been reflected of the squad makeup and I don’t think we should be too frustrated. If we can put out a starting XV against Wales like this (providing all are fit) I don’t think it will be too shabby:

Sinkler, George, Genge/Marler
Itoje, Hill
Underhill/Lawes, Dombrandt, Curry
Randall, Smith, Malins, Tuilagi, Slade, Nowell, Steward.

I think that side would cause Wales problems

If anyone is out there I thought I would start a fallow week debate…
on a subject to tide us over in the fallow week. That subject being Eddie Jones.

Where do you think he has taken / is taking this team since the 2019 World Cup Final?

I’m really on the fence with EJ. As with many ex players/fans/pundits I do think his selection policy is baffling and the continual tinkering I think is not putting us in the best place for the 2023 WC.

That said I think he does need to be cut some slack as England have been hit by a number of injuries over the past few years not allowing consistent selection in certain positions. There also seems to be this thing about England having the biggest player pool, funding etc. I don’t fully buy that view that this should automatically mean we have a conveyor belt of ready made internationals. Having a big player pool does not guarantee you will have the best players. You only have to look at France to prove this. They have really failed to do anything since the 2011 World Cup but have always had a big pool of decent players to choose from. Only now are they turning a corner….10 years on!

People keep talking about how many key players Wales are missing this 6N but losing sight that England are missing May, Watson, Lawes, Underhill, and Launchbury and Hill (plus Nowell really) – all whom I think would be in EJs first choice starting lineup or at least in the match day squad if fully fit

Some obvious problem areas:

Centre partnership has been an issue for a while and we really haven’t found someone better than Manu to play at 12. EJ takes a lot of flack for trying to rely on Manu too much but I cannot think of anyone English qualified No 12 who has really put their hand up to nudge Farrell off 12 when Manu is not available. One caveat to that was Ollie Lawrence ..he seemed to have the potential but EJ kicked him to touch after two caps last 6N. Unfair I think as both games we were poor as a team and he spent most of his time defending and got very little service – and I think he was actually played at 13.

Back row – I still feel our back row is not firing on all cylinders. IMO, Underhill is a key player for us and the balance of him and Curry works so well. Unfortunately Underhill is injury prone or takes a lot of head knocks due to how he plays so I don’t think he can be relied on so we need to cement a No 6 (not Lawes or Itoje) and give Dombrant a consistent run. For me he is a more natural international No 8 than Simmonds.

Scrum Half – Youngs has had his day and EJ really needs to out his faith in Randall or Quirke. We are running out of time for the WC for both fo them to really gain the experience needed.

Grunt and grit
One thing I think has faded since the 2019 World Cup / early EJ era is our will to win games nasty and really get in the face of the opposition. We certainly have the characters and muscle to be like this but something just seems missing. Is this EJ coaching it out of them, or is he starting (or has) lost the dressing room and players are just keeping quiet on it and seeing out the EJ tenure in hope??

Thoughts?

If anyone is out there I thought I would start a fallow week debate…
on a subject to tide us over in the fallow week. That subject being Eddie Jones.

Where do you think he has taken / is taking this team since the 2019 World Cup Final?

I’m really on the fence with EJ. As with many ex players/fans/pundits I do think his selection policy is baffling and the continual tinkering I think is not putting us in the best place for the 2023 WC.

That said I think he does need to be cut some slack as England have been hit by a number of injuries over the past few years not allowing consistent selection in certain positions. There also seems to be this thing about England having the biggest player pool, funding etc. I don’t fully buy that view that this should automatically mean we have a conveyor belt of ready made internationals. Having a big player pool does not guarantee you will have the best players. You only have to look at France to prove this. They have really failed to do anything since the 2011 World Cup but have always had a big pool of decent players to choose from. Only now are they turning a corner….10 years on!

People keep talking about how many key players Wales are missing this 6N but losing sight that England are missing May, Watson, Lawes, Underhill, and Launchbury and Hill (plus Nowell really) – all whom I think would be in EJs first choice starting lineup or at least in the match day squad if fully fit

Some obvious problem areas:

Centre partnership has been an issue for a while and we really haven’t found someone better than Manu to play at 12. EJ takes a lot of flack for trying to rely on Manu too much but I cannot think of anyone English qualified No 12 who has really put their hand up to nudge Farrell off 12 when Manu is not available. One caveat to that was Ollie Lawrence ..he seemed to have the potential but EJ kicked him to touch after two caps last 6N. Unfair I think as both games we were poor as a team and he spent most of his time defending and got very little service – and I think he was actually played at 13.

Back row – I still feel our back row is not firing on all cylinders. IMO, Underhill is a key player for us and the balance of him and Curry works so well. Unfortunately Underhill is injury prone or takes a lot of head knocks due to how he plays so I don’t think he can be relied on so we need to cement a No 6 (not Lawes or Itoje) and give Dombrant a consistent run. For me he is a more natural international No 8 than Simmonds.

Scrum Half – Youngs has had his day and EJ really needs to out his faith in Randall or Quirke. We are running out of time for the WC for both fo them to really gain the experience needed.

Grunt and grit
One thing I think has faded since the 2019 World Cup / early EJ era is our will to win games nasty and really get in the face of the opposition. We certainly have the characters and muscle to be like this but something just seems missing. Is this EJ coaching it out of them, or is he starting (or has) lost the dressing room and players are just keeping quiet on it and seeing out the EJ tenure in hope??

Thoughts?

Thought I’d post here in the hope some chat can bubble…

So after 2 mins I had my head in my hands…not only was it a red card BUT it gave Jones an oven ready made excuse for losing the game. After another 15mins when England lost Tom Curry to injury I thought it was going to be a hiding, but wow how England fronted up and their pack had the Ireland forwards well rattled for most of the game. Question is why did it take a red card to get them fired up?

Anyway once all the feeling of pride and back slapping had stopped the brutal reality set in…again it was England’s backline that failed to capitalise on any front foot ball. There also seems a massive gap in cohesion between their pack and backs – it’s like watching two different teams at times on the field. The forwards seem to be passing it between themselves and the backs just can’t seem to pass!

England have scored six tries this tournament. Four of them against Italy and the one against Wales was an absolute gimme from Wales. So that leaves one try scored against the home nations (Scotland). ONE TRY…….and if I was being over critical that was off a 5 yard scrum and a two on one situation. So they have score no tries in broken play or a phased attack. That is unacceptable.

Is it the coaching or do we just lack the personnel? Smith, Randall, Steward ones that will stick I think, maybe Marchant…Malins seems lost on the wing and really lacks pace. Nowell is a battler but can be too busy in the wrong areas and whilst he takes contact well, never really offloads or passes. Slade I think is running out of time in an England shirt be that at 12 or 13. Might sound harsh but I really struggle to think of games where he has stood out – only 2/3 spring to mind.

May and Watson are both being missed as with the type of game we are playing, or trying to, I feel they would offer much more on and off ball threat than Nowell and Malins. However May is now 31 and Watson is injury prone.

Thoughts?

I’m still here. I feel like Tom Hanks in Castaway though…I’ve painted a face on a rugby ball and called it Wilkinson

This was a great site, but when the new content stopped, it died really. Oh and that comment really made me laugh DM. Very good!

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Who are we thinking is gunna replace our Eddie then? I don’t think we need to look further than Richard Cockerill (rightly or wrongly, wrongly from my point of view). Lets be fair, John Mitchell was being groomed to be the next coach. The second Cockers came in i think he took up the mantle. His style of coaching would certainly fit the RFU mandate of an English coach playing English rugby if his time at Leicester is anything to go by. Dare I say it Lancaster? Or do they just need to get the chequebook out and bring Shaun Edwards home.

DM, excited for the Obi Wan series? KENOOOOBIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!

I think EJ has an Obi Wan hold over the RFU…..’strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can ever imagine’

Anyway back to the replacement, given the RFU has said it will be an Englishman I don’t think there are many options! Cockers or Borthwick would be my bet. Can’t see Lancaster coming back as the No1. End of the day whether he was wholly responsible or not, he failed badly on home soil in the 2015 World Cup.

I think they may turn it all on his head and hire Ronan O’Gara….you heard it here first

I’ve still not forgiven O’Gara for throwing away the Lions tour, what can I say, I hold a grudge for him more than Anakin Skywalker does for sand…or Sand People for that matter.

Do you think La Rochelle has any chance tomorrow?

What’s your thoughts on the European cup and the way it’s going in general – South African teams joining in from next season. Most of the pod casts I listen to think its doom and glooom for the English sides with the salary cap and they just won’t be able to compete with Leinster and the big French clubs. I’m not so sure myself, I think Sarries will be back with a claim and Leicester IMO will get better. If Quins can sort a game plan more suited to the euro knock out stages and not just ‘you score, we score’ I think they should be in with a shout to a QF or SF.

Didn’t see this until today sorry DM. What a game eh?

To be honest I think that, save for the teams you mention, we are in for a hard few years, but equally it will be money in the bank and invaluable experience for club sides to go up against such quality opposition on the regular which can only play dividends come international time. Save for some of the few truly gifted players, most internationals, imho, grow into their roles, so if we can harden up players in the club game then all the better. Yes it might mean a few years of getting spanked, but long term it can only get better?

Going back to your O’Gara comments, with La Rochelle’s European glory I’m seeing articles saying the same crop up more and more. You might be on to something!

Anyone able to give me an insight on the Australia game? I’m away with the wife and kid so didn’t get to watch it but wondering if the BBC heading of a ‘humiliating defeat’ is accurate or a bit OTT?

All over them in the first half but couldn’t convert it to (substantial) points. Second half we did our usual sitting back (though this could just be EJ trying different game plans in what is essentially a friendly) and Australia ramped it up and pumped us. Two tries late on made the score line slightly more flattering. Arundell was on right at the death and made magic happen with his 2 touches, Hill is not a test second row.

Thought that the second half was determined by the Aussies changing their game plan and becoming more direct in the backs which opened up holes and also Curry going off and being replaced by Ludlam meant that we didn’t have a specialist breakdown player on the pitch and the Aussies won the battle of the breakdown convincingly in the second half stealing ball, slowing ours down and winning penalties. As Egg Chaser said our last two scores were in garbage time when the game had already been lost so the Aussie intensity went down a notch or two. Definitely a humiliating second half. Man advantage for much of it and we couldn’t live with them.

Thanks for the update. There is definitely something awry with this England set up and my view is that it is a double edged sword with EJ losing his way (motivation?) but also some of our personnel lacking some basic skills expected at the top level, maybe we are jaded by the premiership a little and overrate some of our own??

Like many I still hold onto some hope that this is all going to come together at the right time but more of me is less convinced. I keep hearing people compare back to England finishing 5th in the 2018 six nations then making a WC final a year later….but this England squad have finished 5th place back to back now and have kinda been treading water since the back end of 2020. I don’t see any improvements in our problem areas. On the Ruck podcasts they pulled out some scary stats how this Eng squad have collapsed in the final 20/25mins in all of their losses over the past 18 months or so to the top tier teams like they either run out of steam and concentration or it is becoming a mental thing. The stats don’t lie as EJ likes to say!!

Great weekend of rugby. Ireland are simply scary at the moment but they seem to be peaking early again? And will they be the same beast without Sexton?

Remain unconvinced by England but the child in me hopes this is all some part of elaborate plan by EJ being careful not to show his cards too soon?

Wales seems to have stagnated under Pivac which is a shame when you consider the talent they have on offer.

Scotland fell victim to the Arentinian passion it seems. I switched off after half time as it looked like one way traffic, only to be shocked when I saw the full time score.

Thoughts?

Hi EC….

Agree with you, Ireland just look capable in all areas of the game and hjjave some world class players peforming as they should be. However as you point out Sexton is so key to them and he seems to raise the peformances of others around him. Not to throw water on their fire though, the All Blacks looked shockingly short of any ability to manage the game/pressure. They just kept doing the same thing and it looked like a load of individuals hunting for glory rather than a team which is quite concerning for NZ fans! Can’t quite put my finger on it as if you look at the players they have they should be better. Maybe the South African teams pulling out of Super Rugby has hurt them with the competition in their domestic league now less, and seem to just be playing each other week in week out?

England – meh – whilst a series win nothing to moan about I just didn’t get really excited by much of their play to make me think we have turned a corner. As it stands I still think we are a long way behind France, Ireland and South Africa. Still not convinced with Faz at 12 and from what I have seen Smith plays more freely without Faz outside him…so it has to be one or the other. Thought was harsh on Care to be dragged off at 35mins albeit was not having his best game…..but how comes B Youngs was never hauled off after having a number of poor performances under EJ??

Wales need a new manager – totally agree. They have some talent coming through, but they won’t challenge for the WC next year.

Scotland…same old.

Hi gang – anyone still about? Just looking for a bit of ruggers chat. Premiership has produced a pretty entertaining start – tries galore! In fact if you look across all competitions, including The Rugby Championship, it has generally been a bit of a try-fest all around. Thing is I am struggling to work out if it is bad defences or just that rugby has shifted to a real attacking game in light of a lot of the negative press it was getting at one point about too much kicking , boring etc.

Sarries looked destructive on the weekend, albeit Leicester were not at full strength. Quins – no change, have you on the edge of your seat, brilliant game that though on Sunday

Still kicking!
Looks like anyone can beat anyone pretty much at the moment.
Would seem that Sarries, Sale and Exeter are the early front runners in terms of performances, with Bath and Newcastle looking like the bottom dwellers with or without poor old Wuss who have had the carpet pulled from underneath them.
Not sure how everyone else stacks up yet, but potentially there could be up to 10 teams in with a shout at this albeit very too early stage of the season.
Quite a few teams without southern hemisphere players, but that is the balance teams must weigh when signing them, as well as European internationals, so Leicester just have suck it up until those players are back.
Averaging about 30 points per team per game. That is some sort of start to the season. Likewise haven’t really worked out what has changed significantly from last season as to why that is. It is normally defences that start a season better. Answers on a postcard!

You’re spot on that it seems like anyone can beat anyone on their day. I think the reduction in salary cap has helped level things out and it will be interesting to see how certain teams cope with fighting on two fronts when the European games start and then the international windows and 6N windows…especially all with lighter depth in their squads overall. I suspect it will be a case of carefully choosing your battles to ensure you are getting maximum points where possible, but that may mean throwing a few other games, or at least trying to scrape a losing bonus fielding a weakened side.

The academy players are going to get way more playing time this year, which I see as a positive step as it gives them more playing time and experience and to my mind this is better than more expensive “star” imports for the game. Some won’t agree with me on that, I’m sure.

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Thoughts on the England selection this weekend? I’m just not seeing any progress/evolution under EJs….back to Youngs starting again – c’mon Eddie we are 1yr out from the WC and you are still giving game time to ‘yesterdays man’. We will never win a WC with BY at No9 we simply need game time given to JVP now!

Manu for me is being picked on past credit in the bank. For me he hasn’t really done much to talk about with Sale, yes he is still a very good player but the reality is injuries have taken their toll and I don’t feel he is the force he once was. Add to that he is 90% likely to have another injury layoff for me he is just stealing international gametime from others.

Itoje back to flanker – give me strength. Is this not an ideal time to give Willis a run? Okay we may lose a lineout option, but then we may discover winning more ball at the breakdown/turnovers is actually what we are in more need of?

This Pumas side are no mugs and I can see them turning us over

Ben Youngs for me is better on the bench, not because he injects any pace but for the experience he offers. He will have been able to watch the whole game and offer up ways to adapt the way England play when he comes on. Should be jettisoned after this World Cup imo.

I think Jones has gone as far as he can with this side. Time for fresh blood. UNFORTUNATELY the RFU have allowed Shaun Edwards to slip through their fingers again and he has extended his time with France until 2027. Frustrating. I’m seeing either Borthwick or Baxter coming into the role, esp with Baxter having taken a step back from direct coaching duties. There is always the chance he is grooming Richard Cockerill for the roll but i hope not. I’d rather have Gatland than Cockerill.

England have been trying to build an England team around an injured Manu Tuilagi for far too long now and it’s time to move on.

Glad Itoje was moved back to the boiler room for the ABs game and that Willis had a go. Ribbans showed some nice touches when he came on too.

Thoughts on Pivac and the Wales loss to Georgia? Thought Wales’ press coverage of it was hugely disrespectful to Georgia.

Great to see Italy playing some fantastic rugby finally.

Welcome back EC. Agree with all you say and we can go into the minute detail on EJ all day long but it’s boring now. IMO he has been quite simply all over the place with selection policies and tactics/gameplans. Some players appear untouchable and then others are given a go for a few games and do nothing worse than his ‘pet favourites’ but are banished from the setup.

Personally I’d like to see a lineup like this given a run in the 6N. Now I know that means no Farrell, BV, Manu but let’s be frank we have nothing to lose as our past two 6N have been rubbish

Steward
Murley
Porter
Lawrence
May
Smith
JVP
Dombrant
Willis (or Earl)
Curry
Lawes
Itoje
Stewart
George
Genge

Well that was a chastising performance! Where do England go from here! Players looked out of sorts, we just got shut down in every area by South Africa. I actually thought SA had another gear and had it not been for them going down to 14 at 60mins I think they would have put another 10 points on Eng.

Did the loss surpise me, no. But I was left pretty stunned on how easy it seemed for them. Maybe I shouldn’t have really given our dull loss to Argentina and then 10mins of glory against NZ, but I thought we would at least go out with some positives from the game, but there were zero….well apart from ‘maybe’ EJ will be shown the door!

It’s just frightening how we have stagnated since 2019 and not evolved. I don’t think we have ness done backwards since 2019 as I felt there were a few cracks starting to appear that were shown up in the final, but we have simply stood still.

Is it all on EJs shoulders? Is it we just fall for the media bigging up our so called ‘world class’ players? Something is toxic that’s for sure

Yes, 6N should be entertaining. I suspect the other nations were secretly hoping EJs stayed on and continued the car crash. Now typically with any change of head coach you see a team re-galvanized. Whether that on its own is enough for England to launch a serious attempt at winning the 6N is another matter but IMO they cannot get any worse than what we have seen this Autumn.

Whoever takes over for Eng I just hope they don’t go for the safe option and keep with pretty much the same starting line up EJs liked as there is no time to test anything else before the 6N. Surely they wouldn’t as this is the last competitive window before the WC (not counting the tests/friendlies!!)

How are we keeping whoever may still be out there?

So……Borthwicks squad..talking points/thoughts etc?

Here’s my initial reaction to the talking points:

BV – not shocked at his omission. Still a good player but I genuinely think Dombrant is our future at No 8 and so he needs his opportunity, with (I assume) Simmonds as a finisher. BV just doesn’t look the same in an England shirt anymore.

Front row – I think this is a weak point from a scrummaging point of view and I am not sure Cole is the fix. Yes he has been scrummaging well, but I still think he will struggle against the better scrummaging props out there at the International level.

Faz as Captain – tells me he will start at 10, I really don’t see Borthwick sticking with the Faz/Smith axis. I’m not adverse to Farrell at 10, but I think let him do his stuff without the weight of the armband – but then suppose who else (I think Lawes is an injury doubt at the moment)? Maybe Genge but does Farrell being captain tell us Genge is not a guaranteed starter?

May/Nowell out – not surprised with Nowell but I think May still steps up a level when he pulls on an England shirt. Suppose it could be a bit of Borthwick knows what he gets from May and Nowell and has thrown an opportunity out to the likes of Murley, OH Collins.

I think not picking Ollie Lawrence is a trick missed. Whilst I have always been a Manu fan, he is not what he used to be and will he stay fit? Can’t help feel he is still shrouded in this mystical smoke that he can turn a game for us, but at the top level, defenses are wise to his ways.

Looking at the selection of back row players – could we see Lawes back in at lock (if fit)?

Anyway overall looks decent, clearly, we need to manage our expectations going into this Six Nations as there is going to (hopefully) be new combos, some nerves and a bit of suck it and see where we come out.

Can’t wait !!!

Hi DM. Still kicking!
Biggest ommission was Val Rapava Ruskin for me. One of the better scummagers in the prem and definitely one of the better props in the loose and at the breakdown. Ollie Lawrence a surprise too. He’s looked excellent since moving to Bath.
Not surprised about Nowell or May, albeit May has always played well for England but he isn’t scoring many tries (maybe a Glos problem) and we need to score points as a team.
BV has been a busted flush for England for quite a number of years and not even the same force at Sarries. Don’t think Mako should be near the squad and although not surprised by Cole’s return, I think that it is probably a backward step. However do think that scrummaging props are a real weakness for England at the moment, particularly as we don’t normally have massive locks behind them.
Anyway most of the squad is pretty much as expected and for me the change in coaching will be the key to our revival. Was very happy to see Jones go.

Yes forgot about VRR – he is tearing it up and an absolute unit. I’d have him any day over MV.

I just hope (and have a feeling) Borthwick will get our pack being gnarly again. We certainly seemed to lose that gritty edge under Jones and in-your-face mentality.

Starting XV prediction before annoucement:
Genge, George, Cole, Isiekwe, Itoke, Earl/Ludlam, Curry, Dombrandt, Youngs, Smith, Malins, Farrell, Marchant, Hassell-Collins, Stewart

Quick guess at the England side before it’s announced:

1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Isiekwe
6. Curry
7. Ludlam/Earl
8. Dombrandt
9. Youngs
10. Smith
11. Malins
12. Farrell
13. Marchent
14. Hassell-Collins
15. Stewart.

Farrell at 12…….sigghhhhhhhhh….

Mixed feelings from me about the selection, albeit I think most will have been forced by recent injuries. Not sure having D Cole as an impact player works, unless it’s a message to Sinkler to say pull your socks up scrummaging or you are hooked off for Cole early doors?

Would have liked to have seen Willis or Earl starting but if we can wear down the Scots pack they offer some danger in the last 20/25mins.

Malins doesn’t convince me at the international level, doesn’t have that turn of pace and not convinced with him defensively (not poor but not amazing either).

Oh well..swing low

Farrell at 12…….sigghhhhhhhhh….

Mixed feelings from me about the selection, albeit I think most will have been forced by recent injuries. Not sure having D Cole as an impact player works, unless it’s a message to Sinkler to say pull your socks up scrummaging or you are hooked off for Cole early doors?

Would have liked to have seen Willis or Earl starting but if we can wear down the Scots pack they offer some danger in the last 20/25mins.

Malins doesn’t convince me at the international level, doesn’t have that turn of pace and not convinced with him defensively (not poor but not amazing either).

Oh well..swing low

Maybe this is a case of Borthwick and the new coaches ‘testing’ it with their own eyes….but if that test backfires it’s one more game less before the WC to find a 10/12/13 combo that works!

It’s really surprised me TBH, I had my house on Borthwick going with Faz at 10 with the mindset of ‘back to basics’. Maybe this was the plan but with injuries to Slade, Daly, Kelly, and what would seem Manu not ready for test level, in Steve’s eyes, it has forced his hand with Faz at 12??

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