Comments on: International Scout Notes: 3rd December

By: Mongoose

Mongoose — Thu, 05 Dec 2013 09:10:13 +0000

My concern with cipriani is that his brilliance is so inconsistent

That said, he, ford and burns are the three that have the potential to match quade cooper’s amazing performance against Wales.

Whichever is played, Farrell should be bench cover for 10 IMO

By: Dave

Dave — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:37:11 +0000

Good point. Webber I am not too worried about. He has had a whole 6 nations experience and a summer tour and has trained with the squad numerous times so he would slot in easily. I wouldn’t put him over Hartley or Youngs for any reason other than form for the 6N then.

At 10 though- Saracens are likely to be in the final, as they are very likely to have a home semi, and they are very good at home. With Flood going to France most likely, Burns, Ford or Cipriani will have to start at 10 vs NZ. With Burns out of form (not only from the tee), one of Cipriani or Ford must be in the match day squad for the 6N to replace Flood. Cipriani would be okay to start against NZ given he is experienced and has played against a lot of those guys, not forgetting he has 7 caps already. Ford however, I would not give him a debut away to NZ.

Centres and wings should be fine, given the options there that play for the likes of Gloucester, Bath, Irish and Wasps. Fullback is no issue given that, if fit, one of Brown, Foden and Goode will be available. Scrum half exactly the same. Loosehead exactly the same.

If it is a Bath Tigers final, then Henry Thomas at tight head could be in for a torrid day. Unlikely to happen though.

Locks- We will have two of Launchbury, Parling, Attwood and Lawes.

If Quins get to the fins (unlikely IMO), then Kvesic can easily step up. If Saints Tigers, then we will have to play Haskell, which isnt bad. Hopefully Wood/Croft will be available.

Gloucester 99% won’t make the final, so Morgan should be able to pack down at 8.

Guess if you think about it, it shouldn’t be too bad if everyone not involved in the final is available. Of the players who really shouldn’t be in the final, its not a bad start.

1. Marler
2. Webber
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Attwood
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Ford/Cipriani
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Trinder
14. May/Wade
15. Brown

By: SY

SY — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:37:03 +0000

Thanks. I’m not really able to watch the Premiership matches and was taking into account the injuries.

By: SY

SY — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:33:49 +0000

No, I disagree about Australia. Their pack isn’t bad, apart from scrums, but they have been known to create parity with better scrummaging teams. The problem with Australia was the culture and environment that Deans created. Cooper called it toxic and I believe him.

Deans did a great job finding young talent and capped them early, but they were not ready emotionally for it. Look at the sense of entitlement and immaturity that some of these players have shown. It really shows the need for strong veteran leadership, which Australia lacked. It hasn’t paid off. Cooper, Beale, and O’Connor have all been subject to international wilderness. Look at the debacle in Ireland a few weeks ago. In the last four years, Australia has only won Tri-Nations once and greatly underperformed in the 2011 World Cup.

I think using the term “journeyman” is disingenuous. I don’t believe that being an international player is based on talent. There has been many talented players who couldn’t cut it at that level. It’s based on the mental and emotional readiness of the player. In general, younger player is more mentally and emotionally fragile, but there are exceptions to this. Sometimes, a player may never be ready. However, I wouldn’t ignore a player in their late 20s just because they were given a brief chance earlier in their career or never at all. Some players are late bloomers.

By: Benjit

Benjit — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:26:31 +0000

Another thing to consider is that a Sarries v Tigers prem final is a strong possibility depriving Eng of Farrell and Flood for the first test. SL must do some fwd planning and bring players from outside the top 3. Webber at hooker fir instance. If Bath get to the final then no worries as we’ll have access to one of tigers/ sarries/ saints. But 2 of Tigers/saints/ sarries in the final is more likely so we must blood some other players

By: Dave

Dave — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 21:22:43 +0000

Sorry got to disagree about clubs playing foreign centres (when all fit)

Sarries- Barritt, Tomkins
Leicester- Allen, Tuilagi
Quins- Casson, Lowe/Hopper
Saints- Burrell, Waldouck/Pisi (I know Pisi mostly)
Bath- Eastmond/Devoto, Joseph
Gloucester- Twelvetrees, Trinder

By: Dave

Dave — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 21:19:02 +0000

Talk of Flood going to Toulon is starting to get serious now that the ‘transfer window’ is opening in January. I imagine he will make a decision very soon to give Cockerill the best chance of recruiting a new 10. Would love to be a fly on the wall for the convo between Lancaster and Flood. For Flood and England’s sake, he should really say that in 2 years, if everyone is fit, then Farrell and Ford will probably be his top 10s.

Therefore if he does go, as he should, then Lancaster has an excuse to bring Ford into the squad for Flood without ‘dropping’ anybody mid-season, which doesn’t look like something he likes to do often. Ford is getting an armchair ride with the Bath pack dominance this season, but I honestly think, even at the age of 20, he is the best all round fly half we have. Before anyone says he is too young and inexperienced, Farrell was 20 and had two halves of premiership rugby under his belt. Ford has played in 3 finals, played well off the bench for the last couple of seasons and has been the form flyhalf for this season. Time for SL to bite the bullet.

By: Benjit

Benjit — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 20:55:32 +0000

Sy Australia’s problem did not come from trusting youth but having a crap pack. The Aussies are the masters at spotting talent and backing it early. It pays dividends. I’m not saying pick youth whatever but players like Nowell , Watson ans Ford have been to junior world cup finals and even won it. What more can we learn about Ashton Strettle or Flood? They’ve had plenty of chances and whilst I’d keep Flood and Ashton in or around the squad they have not proven themsleves worthy of first team picks so rather than replace them with journeyman lets roll the dice and pick on talent beit potential talent.

By: SY

SY — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:59:38 +0000

I think you are right about North. He would have had a couple caps and dropped because he wouldn’t do anything in those matches because the units don’t gell and that doesn’t give any of the players the platform to perform. England would never allow him to grow and make mistakes because it’s a win now situation.

The fans don’t allow young players to grow or make mistakes . If they don’t perform within a few caps, there is a call for that player to be dropped and the next “big thing” to get their chance. And, the cycle continues.

By: SY

SY — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 19:46:44 +0000

It’s easy to see why England has been so impotent on attack. It’s because England play young inexperienced international players who 1) are adjusting to this level of play, and 2) are paired with equally (or more) inexperience players and are not used to playing with each other. Farrell, Twelvetrees, and Tompkins had three games together. Dickson has only 12 caps. Is it a surprised they struggled? I know that Farrell and Tompkins play together at Saracens, but Tompkins was uncapped at the start of AIs and hadn’t played with Twelvetrees before. Just training with someone is not enough. Would playing Burrell, Eastmond, or Trinder have made any difference? Maybe, Twelvetrees and Trinder because they play together at Gloucester.

England’s management has failed in the sense that they should have gone with established club units instead from the start, but looking at the England/Saxon squads and the injuries, I think England had their hands tied. Plus, I think I would be safe to say that the clubs often play a English centre with a foreign one, with the exception of Gloucester and Bath maybe.

Why is there so much emphasis on youth? Going with young players, doesn’t always pay dividends. Look at Australia and the mess that management created. England may have be better off looking at more experienced Premiership players in the backs (some who were capped way before they were ready or had a string of bad injuries, like Tait and Allen).

By: Mongoose

Mongoose — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 18:54:02 +0000

There really is little point in playing Farrell at 10 with flood on bench. Farrell is amazing defensively and with boot but seems to lack the yard of pace and distributive excellence of ford or burns.

Ford kicked 100% for bath and was strong defensively last w/e and he really needs to be given the chance to step up before 2015.

I would play ford at 10 with Farrell on bench.

By: Alan

Alan — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:22:00 +0000

Wales pick young players out of necessity, not on whether they’re good enough. How else do you explain Tom Prydie getting capped during a Wales Injury crisis?

Nowell is a great shout. Watson would be another good choice for the 6N, which is looking more like it will be an experimental tournament rather than one that we can realistically win. The “mercurial” Matt Banahan would be my other pick on the wing. No need to muck about putting him in at centre.