Comments on: Pride must be swallowed to sort out this Euro-shambles

By: Bill Burgess

Bill Burgess — Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:46:20 +0000

To Jamie and all you guys I must give a great thanks you for your comments. Living in South Africa for many years, the Only Major competitions in Europe for me have been the HC, Top 14 and Aviva. I was never to sure where the Rabo Direct, Amlin etc fit into the picture. No wonder I suffer in Superbru! I will study all of your comments to try and get my head around what is all about. For me the best solution for all Rugby Fans will be a top competition which includes all the “genuine” contenders to the betterment of us all. Thanks to all of you.

By: brighty

brighty — Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:47:45 +0000

That sounds feasible. I would not be so sure though that the notice to quite effectively means a dissolved comp and therefore gets ERC out of it’s contract with SKY.

There is also the factor that EPL have effectively sold other teams TV rights as the BT deal includes away matches. So the EPL have sold their rights for matches in Cardiff, for example, that feature English teams. On top of it being rude and unprecedented to do this I think there’s an IRB clause somewhere about it that basically says what you’d expect – home teams/unions sell their own rights. This is why when England went to SKY in the 6Ns a few years ago they could only take their home games and the one in Paris.

Also at the moment the only comp sanctioned by IRB is one setup by the ERC so the ERC do have some small bargaining power here in that the IRB (with the daft old two votes for each home nation rule) is unlikely to go against ERC.

Very messy it would seem to me.

By: Fearless Fred

Fearless Fred — Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:42:55 +0000

Actually, I think it is ERC & Sky who are on shaky ground. Let me run through my reasoning….

July 2012, the PRL and LNR clubs announce their decision to withdraw, as allowed under the ERC compact, thereby meaning that after the end of the 13/14 season, the ERC is effectively dissolved; ergo, no competition exists.

September 2012, BT and PRL announce the deal that agrees BT rights to broadcast English teams games in any future European competition post the 13/14 season.

ERC then quickly announce they’ve signed again with Sky as exclusive broadcaster for the future Heineken Cup. However, that competition doesn’t exist, as the ERC don’t have agreement from at least two of the competitors about any compact for future competitions. If there is to be a new compact, then broadcasting rights will have to be negotiated as part of it, to the agreement of all 6 nation’s clubs.

Because BT and PRL chose to phrase it as “BT will also have exclusive live broadcast rights to matches played by Aviva Premiership Rugby clubs in any future European competitions from 2014-15 for three years”, they basically managed to cover their bases ahead of any renewed compact. ERC, by basically agreeing rights to a specific competition that has to be agreed to by the PRL & LNR have sold something SPECIFIC that doesn’t exist.

By: Niall

Niall — Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:30:53 +0000

I’ve felt for sometime that Scotland (and I guess Italy), shouldn’t have two direct entrants (or at least, 100% entry) to the Heineken cup. Having one in the Amlin wouldn’t have been all that bad a thing as it would have boosted that teams ranking in europe (look at Connacht), while still playing meaningful european rugby.

As has been mooted in other reports, probably the best situation would be three competitions.

Top level (current HC): 20 teams, 6 from Aviva, Top 14, Pro12 (top 2 plus one from each union based on league positions), along with the previous year’s winner and the winner of the second level competition (or from same league, but keep same thing about max of 7 from england and France).

5 groups of 4 teams. winners of each pool plus three best runners up to Quarters. 4th and 5th runners up drop to Second Level Quarters.

Second level (current Amlin): 20 teams, 5 English, 6 French, 5 pro12 (based on league positions), winner of Third Level, three others from the top10 in Italy/romania/etc.

5 groups of 4 teams. winners of each pool plus best runner up to Quarters, joined by 2 teams from top level. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th runners up drop to Third Level Quarters.

Third Level: Promoted team in England, 12th in Pro12, Two Lowest ranked promoted team in France (though they will no doubt end up in Second level anyway), and 13 other teams from the likes of Russia/Georgia/Germany/etc. No reason why some of the teams competing in the B&I couldn’t play in this instead.
4 pools of 4, winners plus 4 teams from second level to Quarter finals.

By: brighty

brighty — Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:28:40 +0000

Hit send too soon … so my point is, are we now at the point where anything involving the ERC, and therefore SKY, cannot go forward because it would bankrupt the EPL?

By: brighty

brighty — Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:27:55 +0000

There are details in this that confuse me. Let’s say their is compromise and the ERC sanctioned tournament (i.e. the Heineken Cup) changes to top 6 from each league and money split on league lines.

Where does that leave the EPL with the BT deal? ERC have signed a SKY deal so I’d assume that goes forward. Do BT then sue EPL or something?

By: Niall

Niall — Fri, 13 Sep 2013 11:38:02 +0000

but who gets the 8 teams? The extra slots for the league that wins HC and Amlin winner is fair as it allows teams to progress. If they were to bring in a third level competition, then its winner should get entry to the Amlin the following season. Who’s to say that the top team in Germany or Georgia isn’t allowed to compete with the big boys?

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 12 Sep 2013 20:45:01 +0000

Well, I disagree with Fred that the Zebre example gives anyone the right to do what they’re doing but do agree with the end point both of you are making of a 2,2,1,1 split from the Pro 12.

Jamie – that’s the compromise though with regards to Blues missing out. If Blues come 3rd in Wales I’d still say we’re better than Treviso but Treviso would still go through. Dragons regularly beat Treviso but they miss out on HC at the mo. Line has to be drawn somewhere.

There will be nasty consequences though that till negate the idea of engendering competitiveness in the Pro 12. For example I would fully expect Ireland to decide to shove all of their money into 2 teams and have 2 dev teams, instead of the 3/1 split they currently have. Scotland may well do the same. Trickier in Wales due to non central control but the finances would likely make it happen eventually.

Perhaps I’m all for “top 6″ now. I feel I’ve been worn down and just want them to bloody get on with it. First home game of the season tomorrow. I’d like to have a rough idea soon if it matters at all where we end up in the league in terms of qualification (of course it matters, I want to win the league, but I don’t like this bloody limbo).

Marc

By: Matt

Matt — Thu, 12 Sep 2013 14:33:39 +0000

6+6+8, with no extra slots to the league that provides last year’s HC and Amlin winner just seems like the best compromise. My fear is because this position hasn’t been negotiated towards, from either side, we have now lost the opportunity to get there. Both sides have negotiated hard, believing in the strength of their hand. From what I’ve read it seems the ERC have felt they were in an impregnable position as they are the ones with the IRB mandate to run a European competition. They haven’t taken the threat seriously that a competition could be set up outside of their control. I assume they have just dismissed it all as sabre rattling.

6+6+6+2 may well end up with 8 French sides in some seasons, whilst this may be an accurate reflection on the balance of power of European rugby we could theoretically end up with all French quarter finals!

My wish is that we have a salary cap for European squads (or a financial fair play rule) and a minimum number of home nation representatives in match day squads. I’m all for rugby professionals earning big money in a short career, but not when money flowing out of the sport exceeds income.

However, there could be a solution for the future of the barbarians debated over the summer, just book Toulon for another game, problem solved a team of international all stars that don’t need time to gel together.

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 12 Sep 2013 14:00:03 +0000

Agreed, lets all smuggle Jacob and Fearless into the next meeting.

By: brighty

brighty — Thu, 12 Sep 2013 13:59:22 +0000

Jamie, the salary cap removal only helps the English compete with the French though, and even then only some of the English. There is no cap in Ireland and the cap in Wales was self inflicted i.e. we have money X so let’s say that is also the salary cap. They don’t have any more money than the cap.

By: Fearless Fred

Fearless Fred — Thu, 12 Sep 2013 13:52:14 +0000

Totally agreed, Jamie! I think the ERC basically gave the PRL and LNR all the ammunition they needed to call time on the agreement when they agreed to allow Zebre (a team that had NEVER played a game in “anger” straight into the Heineken Cup last season. To put a club with no track record at all in ANY competition into the Premium European Competition was ludicrous to say the least.