England bowed out of their own World Cup after an ineffectual loss to the rampant Australians. A lot has been written about how and why they went out, mostly blaming Stuart Lancaster and Andy Farrell’s selections. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, of course, but one thing you can’t say is that the issue of Robshaw not being a ‘true’ open side is news.
Since the very first game of the Robshaw era, an huge number of articles have been written about how he isn’t a typical open side, or is more of a “six and a half”. Sadly, it took until Saturday and the presence of the “Pooper” pairing for it to finally hit home that Robshaw – as good as he is – is not England’s answer at seven.
But why isn’t Robshaw a seven? And what actually makes a good seven? With the use of specific examples from the Australia calamity, I’m going to answer both questions.
1. The first English breakdown of the game is a perfect example of the difference between the Australian and English approach. In the first photo below, we see the very first scrum of the game; a free kick to England ensues and already Hooper has broken into the back line, quickly followed by Pocock.
Robshaw is much slower off the mark and at the first breakdown (photo two), both Hooper and Pocock are over the ball and Robshaw is already behind the play. This wasn’t a turnover but it did slow down the ball.
2. At the very next breakdown (below), Hooper isn’t involved but he is already in the fringe defence ready for the next play. Robshaw (bottom right) is still behind the play. English ball has been so slow that Ben Youngs decides to kick – but it is a poor one, which rolls through the dead ball area.
3. This, again, is inside the first ten minutes. England find themselves on the back foot whilst trying to break down the Australian line. England have carried the ball and Australia’s blindside, Scott Fardy, has unsuccessfully gone for the turnover. England need to do better to clear him out and give Ben Youngs quick ball, but they don’t and the Leicester man has to look right before turning and coming back to the left.
The result is Joe Launchbury hits it up by himself, but because the ball is slow he makes no ground, and Robshaw and Dan Cole are caught in front of the ball. Ben Morgan is too wide to help out at the breakdown and Tom Youngs is not close enough either. The England players are the red dots in the first photo below.
Unfortunately for England, David Pocock is there and he easily steals the ball before any England players can touch him (see the second photo). It is up to the English players to make sure they get there to support Launchbury, but the fact that he was running by himself into Pocock is a direct result of the previous breakdown.
4. The issue wasn’t just England’s inability to prevent the Australians from stealing their ball, but also their own failure to disrupt Australia’s. In the lead up to the first Wallaby try, Robshaw has a clean shot at the ball with really only the prop Kepu likely to dislodge him. He needed to manoeuvre around the prone Launchbury to get there. Robshaw is actually dislodged far too easily by the Australian lock, Simmons, who is engaged with him in the below picture, and shouldn’t be able to move him from that angle.
5. This last group of photos is a perfect example of what Pocock was able to do that Robshaw couldn’t. Ben Youngs has turned quick ball into a short pass to a big forward running around the fringes. Unfortunately, he’s run into Pocock. Not a problem, England have Robshaw and Wood arriving to clear the no.8 out (see first photo below).
In the second photo below, Robshaw has two options; get into where the yellow line is so he is under Pocock’s shoulders and leverage up or, crocodile roll him and let Wood secure the ball. He does neither and just drives into him which helps Pocock turn the ball over. It’s turnover ball and Genia can attack – once again England are put on the back foot thanks to Australia’s superior back row.
Now, it’s important to remember that these are just snapshots of one game, and although they look bad, this isn’t Robshaw’s consistent level of play. The issue is that the modern game is all about the breakdown, and you have to put at least one person in your starting 15 who can turn over ball and halt the opposition’s attack.
England don’t have that at the moment and it’s costing them games. Robshaw could be a very good option on the blindside, but he is not in the league of Pocock or Hooper in the openside role. For many there seems to be one obvious choice; while there might not be a better seven in England, there certainly is one in France.
By Sam Larner (@SamLStandsUp)
It is my view that England have got too caught up in playing an expansive game whereby back rows are expected to link in with centres etc which has been to the detriment of their breakdown play in particular. One example is the Joseph break in first half from a Farrell off load. It is my contention that at the point Joseph took contact the first player their should have been Wood, Robshaw or Morgan. I’ll guarantee you it was probably May and Barritt or Brown. One of two things happen here.
1. Turnover results with the result that Aussie backs attack England forwards
2. Slow ball is given to England forwards whose only option is to take contact.
Had it been forwards clearing out, serving quick ball to backs likely to be against front row forwards tries would result.
This is the major problem with English style of play at present.
If you ask me Matt Kvesic would be my favourite for the openside role if they don’t change the rules to let Armitage play for England. Kvesic was a shining light in an under par Gloucester team last season
You’ve echoed my thoughts Mac. Already got good experience. Can play now.
Will Fraser at Saracens if he stays fit is one for the future.
Why, oh why don’t the RFU and a Premiership club combine and buy out Armitage’s contract with Toulon. They seem to do it for any old rugby league player, so why not do it for one of the best back row players in Europe?
They tried. He decided to re-sign back with Toulon apparently after they would not guarantee him a spot in the England squad
Will Owen from England’s U20 squad and Leicester Tigers is a bloody good bet. Get him involved now and by the next RWC he will be a star
Lewis Ludlam was voted Englands player of the tournament and started ahead of Owen whenever he was fit. He is a proper fetcher too
We’ve bandied about the Armitage question over and over again. Yes he would have been good for this RWC, but in the long run it would be a disaster for premiership rugby and for an England coach to have unfettered access to his players. It just shouldn’t happen if we want a sustainable future. We can’t compete with French club money.
That is unless we opt for a major shake up like central contracts or something else. Time for Squeaky to earn his money!
Central contracts would never work in England; the clubs have too much money to allow the RFU to control their star players.
We also can’t start picking players in France. My worry with someone like Jake White/Eddie Jones coming in, is that they won’t have any interest in English rugby in 10-15 years, they’ll only care about a RWC cycle. In that, they’ll probably be pushing hard to be allowed to pick French based players.
The RFU have to stand strong on that front; we can’t let it happen. We should however be giving Armitage a boat load of cash to come back over the England and play here.
There are a couple of issues with Armitage as I see it:
1. He ain’t 21 anymore, so isn’t exactly the future. I’d prefer England to focus on players who’ve proven their loyalty to playing in England and who will give two world cups at least. Chucking a bucket load of cash at this player will send as bad a message as picking him whilst playing in France.
2. Can he be trusted behaviourly. After all he spent time at Saracens where he is undoubted talent was allowed to leave. You have to ask why that would be.
1. He is a great 7 and young enough to play in 2019. Plus would be useful to use in 6 nations in the mean time.
2. He was at london irish, but grew up in France. he was let go because Toulon wanted to pay him a bucket load of cash that irish couldn’t compete with, and he wasn’t playing for England at the time anyway
Top players earn big money. Burgess has been paid a fortune to come play here so why shouldn’t Armitage? He’s far more proven that Burgess would have been.
Should note I’m not suggesting Burgess won’t be a great player – if he plays for the next couple years he definitely will be.
He started at Saracens, two seasons. My point is a club with such a good record at developing young players both on and off the field were happy to let an undoubted talent leave speaks volumes about him.
Yep, and George Ford is no use too because he left Leicester at a young age.
That is a crazy notion. Players leaving clubs can happen for one of a million reasons. For one, Irish at the time were considerably better than Saracens.
Grew up in France? Isn’t he still under investigation having been arrested for a drunken assault?
Forget Armitage – he’s had his chance and he chose Toulon and bucket loads of cash over the chance of playing for England and slightly less cash.
If a club wants to throw money at him, well that’s their choice, but the RFU should have sod all to do with it and he can earn his way into the team through his performances (that aren’t behind Toulon’s massive pack full of stars)
Totally agree with you Jez. He also had several seasons at London Irish where he wasn’t that great. Someone else pointed out the other day, that he may only be that good in that team? Playing in a team like that would probably make most players look better than they are individually.
He had some attitude issues at Saracens (runs in the family, just look at Delon’s record), and an argument with some of the coaches led to him signing for Irish where Delon was already playing.
I say get over it, he’s not going to play for England again so let’s find someone who is just as good (a lot of our choices would look as good playing for Toulon), and get them in the squad now.
Armitage is 30, good players can play at 34 in internationals but will be in decline.
Much better to look for a younger guy not yet peaked because armitage isn’t going to be the saviour of English rugby.
Also at Toulon he plays in a team of superstars that are better than any other team, will he be as good against an aus or nz back row when it is much more even? We don’t kno because it’s never been tested.
Another interesting question. Why did Armitage become a World class player in France, when he only had potential here. Was it age and experience? Better coaching? Different system which utilised his talents better? Better off field support? Anyone have any idea?
I think that Armitage was given plenty of opportunities to develop at Saracens. The one thing you can say about Sarries is that they are the league leaders in developing players off field as much as on field. I think potentially he was deemed as not buying into the club’s ethos despite chances given. The behavioural issues he has had in France (does he not still have an assault charge hanging over him?) bear this out.
Playing wise I’m sure had he stayed in England, whether Saracens or other club, he would be as talented as he is in France.
Age and experience I’m sure had something to do with it but so does playing in Toulon’s super-star pack
I wonder what Clive Woodward would say about the long-term Armitage/player abroad issue? The French national team is performing well (certainly better than the English one) despite their weight of foreign-based players in the French League. If it is purely a fear of the amount of money required it might just be a pointless exercise of putting the proverbial finger in the dam. It’s going to break so accept it! I feel the club v country scare-mongering might be just that. It is normally best in life to include all options and not exclude any at the detriment of the whole. A common sense approach/compromise system is required. What we CANNOT have is a whole load of anti-players-based abroad exhibisionists/purists of which there are many on this site. Bearing in mind what has just happened and listening to what a rugby leading light says about it (Woodward) I personally would encourage thinking out of the box, inclusive and lateral thinking.
The rule book arguably needs ripping up and re-writing (maybe Woodward will kindly do that for us or even make a return to the England managerialship. Food for thought!
Eh? Since when has the French team been performing well? They win a couple of easy matches and you’ve re-written history!
They’ve been a complete disaster area for the last five years. Their 6 Nations record for the last 4 years was 4th, 4th, 6th, 4th, 2nd compared to 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st for England
The main reason for this is the sheer amount of foreign players in the French leagues. Their players just aren’t getting the experience needed and to deal with it you’ll see more and more French national players qualifying through residency having been recruited from abroad rather than being home-grown.
If you want English rugby to end up like English football, then yours is the route to go down.
As for Woodward – well he’ll say anything so long as it gets him on the TV
The thing that struck me about Pocock last Saturday was his accuracy – just hands straight onto the ball, which was obviously helped by him being there with so much time before the England forwards.
I do wonder what would have happened to this England team if they had played *this* (i,e. with a fit Pocock) Australia team away in a test series, instead of NZ (and presumably got beaten heavily).
It seems that after the NZ tour, where England were clearly second best in being able to play accurately for 80 minutes, Lancaster and co. set about making that their goal, as if they were gearing up to be able to beat NZ at their own game. So they expanded their attacking game and worked on the fitness (all good things), but did not address the ‘no. 7’ problem. As England beat Aus at Twickenham for the past couple of years, they didn’t really see it as a big problem (even with Cardiff 2013 happening). Maybe it wasn’t a problem if Cole, Launchbury etc were all on form in this area as well, but they didn’t look it to me (out of form or just back to fitness).
But what if Pocock and Hooper had dominated England away in a test series before the WC? Maybe the coaches would have seen what they were going to be up against and made adjustments?
I also wonder what would have happened if Wood hadn’t been injured right at the start of Lancaster’s reign, when he was initially set to be made captain. But instead, Robshaw was made captain and as he was ok at it, just kept it without challenge for 4 years. This meant there was no real challenge for the no. 7 shirt, apart from Kvesic away in Argentina I think (when Robshaw was rested).
As for the future, I hope Will Fraser stays fit this season and gets firing in the Saracens back row. Just imagine a back row of Itoje, Billy V and Fraser – could be the future England back row.
Good points, but I think we’d have just ended up with Wood at 7 and Robshaw at 6 and no real change to the issues
Photo 3 here is somewhat unfair on Robshaw. England often use him at first-receiver and that’s what he’s doing there. Whether they should or not is debatable but not exactly Robshaw’s fault
I’ve made this point elsewhere, but England could have swapped Robshaw for Pocock and we’d still have lost out at the breakdown because of the lack of support from the rest of the pack.
It requires the pack to ruck aggressively whether in defence or attack to win the breakdown.Look at the mountain of work the Aussie locks and props and no 6 did in clearing players off their ball or attacking ours.
It was noticeable that when Aus were on the attack and the ball came out of the ruck, they had backs in their backline ready to attack because the forwards were either clearing the ruck or ready to carry the ball close in. Unlike England, where after an attacking ruck, the backline would read 10, 2 , 1, 4, 14 all of whom are standing statically in mid-field
This is not something that will be fixed by the magic addition of one player. These is a strategic and coaching problem that has been a problem for years and shows no sign of being fixed
(Also England’s forwards should watch videos of Japan to see how to clear out rucks effectively)
Although being used as first receiver as captain Robshaw should understand what was going wrong and take the responsibility to change how he and England played. He has shown his inability to do that frequently.
Totally agree pablito. This has been a problem since Back retired. I said as far back as 2008 that England needed a SH forwards coach, have a English scrum or set peice coach by all means, but under Robinson, Wells and Rowntree our breakdown work has been poor apart from the odd good performance
Hurrah well said
Poor tactics all tournament, the intention of using forwards in the backline meaning we are under powered at the rucks. Don’t expect any change on that front this weekend with a distinct lack of ball carriers in the backline
Really excellent article.
I can’t see beyond SA for the shirt. But I don’t want to lose the home based player rule. I’ve no idea how long his contract is with Tolon, but maybe it’s back to the middle ground of we’ll pick you and play you with the assurance that you move back to England when your contract is up.
Robshaw was outplayed, but he was outplayed by two of the best breakdown players currently playing. Maybe a change is needed, but anybody would have struggled against hoopcock
Robshaw, a great club rugby player. Lots of work rate, usually hits good rucks and against France, Ireland, Wales he tends to dominate. He even pivots really well in attack. But, he lacks the breakdown skills a natural 7 should have. Lets look at dominating nations and who plays 7 OOORRR who is the natural fetcher.
SA: Louw, in South Africa if I am not mistaken they invert the numbers in the back row. South Africa uses him to stop momentum, constantly slowing down rucks. But if he is not around they have Mr. Duplessis or Vermulen on hand to do so.
NZ: Well Richie… Enough said.
Australia: Cheika found balance between Pocock and Hooper. Pocock being the best fetcher in business currently. Which amazes me after his injury hiatus. He also is a very potent carrier, making those hard yards that constantly create quick ball. Then you have “little” Hooper who has been given permission to do whatever he wants on the pitch. He plays as a third center, and if you play close attention his turnover is usually out-wide. To compensate both, Australia have Fardy, who I believe is given very little credit for his work.
France: Therry Dousatouir. Immense in defense. Maybe does not get as much turnover, but constantly is in teams faces. Making him a breakdown threat.
Wales: Warburton, natural 7. Always trying to fetch aaanddd Toby Faletau, who does very interesting work at the breakdown. Actually we (English fans) should be hating him. If we would have won against Wales we wouldn´t be doubting Robshaw.
Ireland: O’Mahony and Sean Obrein. Both completely complement each other, wich cancels the lack of a natural 7 within the Irish squad.
The Pumas: MY DARK HORSE OF THE TOURNAMENT. Hourcade (Pumas coach), has been very smart. Fernandez Lobbe, with such class always trying to slow ball down, but then he brings in enforcers such as Lavanini and Matera to constantly hit rucks and create chaos for opposition number nines, and still has Creevy in the number 2 jersey to win the penalties by fetching.
My conclusion is. Tier 1 nations have natural fetchers or at least a system to slow down opposition ball. Now a days if you want to win, you cannot let your opposition gain rhythm. Unfortunately, Lancaster did not see this. Wood and Robshaw are two work horses, running, hitting. However they do not slow ball down, and I believe that you need to do this to win. That is how Asutralia beat NZ a couple of months back. And that is why the fault is not Robshaws, its Lancaster (or Farrell´s), whom did not compensate his presence on the pitch with a natural fetcher.
Please feel free to disagree, I always love a nice debate!
Robshaw tends to dominate Wal/Ire/Fra? Eh? I think he’s had matches where he has been competitive, and matches where the stats have him as more turnovers than Warburton — but dominate? 30-3 in Cardiff, wasn’t he in the backrow in that match?
Robshaw needs to be replaced because he’s pretty good but not good enough BUT I don’t know enough about English rugby to see who is better than him (and please, please do not bring up the Armitage thing…).
I would love to see a team like the one below front up to start the six nations:
1. A. Corbisero
2. D. Hartley
3. D. Cole
4. J. Launchbury
5. C. Lawes
6. C. Robshaw
7. S. Armitage
8. B. Vunipola
9. B. Youngs
10. G. Ford
11. J. May
12. H. Slade
13. M. Tuilagi
14. A. Watson
15. M. Brown
16. T. Youngs
17. M. Vunipola
18. K. Brookes
19. M. Itoje (Second Row & Blindside Cover)
20. B. Morgan
21. D. Care
22. D. Cipriani (Flyhalf & Full Back Cover)
23. J. Jospeh (Centre & Wing Cover)
Corbisero is the best scrummaging lose head in England so pairing home with a pardoned Hartley and having the added ballast of Launchbury behind him instead of Parling means that, hey presto, no more scrum issues.
A Robshaw, Armitage and Vunipola back row adds balance, power and the all important out and out seven that we all know is needed.
Slade and Tuilagi in midfield combine guile and vision with raw power allowing Joseph to come on in the last 20 to tear up tired defences with his pace or cover wing if needed.
The bench is filled with impact across the board but also a lot of options. Itoje can come on at 6 if we need an extra line out option as well as covering the second row. Morgan covers 8 and Robshaw can move to 7 if Armitage were to take a knock.
Vunipola, Brooke’s & Youngs all carry superbly but are weaker at scrum time so they are better suited for bench appearances.
Remember Care’s form of the Six Nations before last? He is a far better option to add pace off the bench than Wigglesworth or, if he can’t regain that form, then go for Joe Simpson.
Cipriani covers flyhalf but can also come on as a full back if an extra play maker is needed or if Brown were to get crocked.
There is a mix of youth with increasing experience and the balance just looks right across the park. I honestly can’t envisage a better looking team right now if all were fit, on form and eligible to play.
Hi Paulo. I just woder,would your team have enough beef at lock and enough height in the back row? I don’t think it would take long for the opposition to work out where our throw was going at line out time. BV is the tallest of the three in this back row and he ain’t no jumper at 19 and a half stones!
Itoje would appear to be the answer height wise and he can carry too.Dave Ewers would bring plenty of power though might be less effective as a jumper/decoy jumper.
Not trying to be critical. Just offering food for thought.
Good point Teece. I was mulling that one over and my mind started to wander back to a certain Tom Croft… Perhaps his day has been and gone but Itoje looks like the kind of player who would bring height into the back row to help out with the line out options. Let’s hope he carries on to progress at the rate he has done so far and a star may well have been born.
Of course Robshaw should be replaced at 7 (earlier if possible). The whole back row is a collection of individuals rather than a smoothly functioning unit.
Furthermore,all Hooper and Pocock, along with MaCaw, Tipuric, Warburton etc, did was brutally expose a fault line that has been running through this side for a long time.
Somehow SL has managed to get the backs playing as forwards. That is why we constantly see forwards ten yards from the breakdown and backs trying desperately to clear out and win ball. I see this as a consequence of too much league style influence and the desire to constantly be playing an all court game in which phases of play are not built up but snatched at as soon as they appear to be available. This also explains the tendency to go laterally from too far out which often leaves the wingers with nowhere to go and no space to operate in.
The back row needs two carriers and a fetcher,possibly one player who can do both to equal effect to augment the out and out fetcher. Then ,with secure ball ,phases can be built and openings probed for without the harum scarum,quick,fling it wide rubbish we get now.
Whoever comes in needs to find that balance and get the three complimenting each other’s game rather than compromising it. It would be interesting to give CR a few games at 6 ,without the burden of captaincy. no more square pegs in round holes.
What I’d say to Pablito is so what about players arriving through residency.
Look at the All Blacks! I haven’t noticed an all white farming stock NZ team since about 1987 (famously training with the sheep over one shoulder method favoured in the 70’s)
Their a team of Polynesians!!!!! HELLO!!!
There seem to be a lot of unforeseen and unrealised terrors lurking in the minds of some English Rugby (ref club v country especially) fans. We’re attempting to re-write the rule book here post WC. Much like our relationship with bloody Europe. Enough said!
Saying Woodward will say anything to get on TV is facile? Here is the man who brought England their 1st WC since 1966? God we’re good at knocking people in this country! It’s like an art form.
At present I’d say France can beat England and they play some bloody good club rugby to boot!
Robshaw just too slow and ponderous. The whole pack was too fat, too slow and the bakcs lacked any creatviity behind with the selections made. Even if they did then dropping Ford for the Wales game was utter nonsense.
The cracks were there v Fiji but the 4 try win blinded people to what was obvious. it was all going to go horribly wrong.
I am afraid that far too many England fans fell for the media myth that this was England’s tournament.
In 2003 W+nkwood had created a really outstanding team that won games at home and away against every team inc the SA top 3. His No7 was Neil Back.
Who’d you rather have today Robshaw or a Back?
Lancaster has not even won the 6n after 4 attempts.
The whole image of the England team running into the tournament with ITV adverts have not helped and just the whole team/rfu/England thing looks like they had appointed themselves RWC winners in 2015 b 4 a ball was ever kicked.
Why else do you think the others nations dislike the England team/ the English media’s attitude so much?
For example in my local Merthyr DW gym we have Robshaw’s face looking down from posters in the gym/the reception and even the men’s toilet with adverts for Lucozade and 6n tickets.
For valley folk this is a real insult (It’s company policy….ho hum)
Well in reality it is like putting Hitler’s image in a gym in Paris.
The whole jamboree around the England team just makes them look all the more stupid now doesn’t it and they NEVER learn from it!
Andy Farrel as a League convert???
Henry Paul as a League convert???
Sam Burgess as a League concert????
Cipriani on the Aussies,
Ben Morgan on the Aussies.
Austin Healey ..plank..Lions 2001????
ITV filled and I mean filled the studios with England pundits from the word go and now they have to sit through the rest of the tournament knowing that the hosts, their England, were out b 4 the pool stages even ended.
We had all the almost gloating English adverts from NHS blood-bleed for the English rose to the O2 pygmies. Now the Lucozade tv adverts did not wind people up because the emphasis was Home Unions but all the others????
Back to the rugby….
Replace Robshaw, expand the game into the state sector because without this England will never progress. For example my Neath mate was teaching in a North London in the 1990s and his was was the only state school there that had annual rugby games away v Eton, Harrow and Millfield.
In 2003 1/3 of the England squad was public school, 2/3s was state. By 2015 it is 1/3 state school and 2/3s public school.
c93+% of all English pupils attend a state school. The RFU must throw off the shackles and take the game outside of the ivory towers of Tomkinson’s school days and the Greybridge School Leopard.
This was their chance but I think they have really thrown the baby out with the bath water.
What utter Tosh, Robshaw akin to Hitler. A sense of perspective please.
Jes, don’t bother, just skip his comments.
I disregarded them to be honest, but I felt I had to comment as I’m not sure I’ve heard anything quite so idiotic!
Then you did not grow up in a community wrecked and I mean wrecked by the Thatcherite Economic policies of the 1980s? NO
Did your dad live in a house rented and shared with another family with bathing in a tin bath in front of the fire and no inside toilett? NO of course not!!!
Did your mother own her first dressing gown at age 19??? NO I don’t think so
No the depression of the 1930s probably passed your family by and the damage done with 34% male unemployment in the mid 1980s by Thatcher et al did not affect your community one iota.
Just be glad I am being as nice as can be under the circumstances.
R U still in the Enlgand RWc of 2015 NO!!!!!
HA HA HA HA HA
Fortunately you can still get your therapy and medication courtesy of the *British* tax payer
I shall say this only once!
I’m sorry prophet Enoch that you feel that Chris Robshaw is at fault for all Thatchers ills ( and yes I may have grown up in a nice middle class home, but also having lived in the north, been a card carrying member of the Labour party for 30 years, fought against successive conservative governments and fought and marched for miners, workers, black, Gay and against war and far right organisations) I find your lazy stereotyping of the English as offensive. Wise up man.
poor you, so bitter my heart bleeds for you, all these troubles & it’s everyone else’s fault. Fortunately us northerners did not wallow in self pity & just got on with our lives. Come on the Boks & wipe the floor with this sad ‘fans’ team
I look forward to wearing my England shirt & cheering whichever team is playing & fortunately will see the back of you in the QF. Don’t want my RWC spoilt by this garbage
Makes you just as bad as Enoch, Col. Enoch’s approach is that the English rugby team deserve to be hated because Maggie Thatcher ruined the valleys, the English killed Glyndwr, etc. etc. etc. Pick your own injustice here.
Your approach is that the welsh rugby team deserve to lose, and be mocked, because one Welshman, Enoch, hates the English rugby team.
I’ve been told, rightly, many times not to label the English rugby fans/team as arrogant just because some divs in the media though beating Wales was a given. I’d suggest this works both ways – don’t assume us Welsh all have a problem with the English and their rugby team.
Saying that I wouldn’t expect you to support Wales anyway (all this “home nations” guff makes me laugh) but at least support the Boks rather than anti-supporting Wales?
Fair comment Brighty, but there are more than 1 Welshman making similar comments. Of the 2 games I got to at the RWC so far 1 defeat was more enjoyable & 1 was not & that was down to the fans around me, You don’t need to be a genius to know which game I mean. Am fed up with all the anti brigade & at times feel the need to rant back. How can I support any team when all you get from their fans at games is abuse. Never received any from Boks, Aussies or the French & they will get my support for that reason. Worst case scenario is Wales v Scotland QF = sell my 2 tickets !!!!
Strange how this rubbish England team are still favorites with the bookies for 6N 2016.
Watched both games now on TV & we were nowhere near as bad as the press / bloggers made out – only the aussies were clearly the better team
I’ve been to many Eng v Wal games, Cardiff and Twicks, and never seen this abuse you have suffered. Our experiences are different. I watched Eng v Wal in this WC in a pub in Cardiff where half the people there were English (students and a stag weekend down for London). We had some laughs. A sing off (obviously we won), some good natured wind ups (all one way for 70mins, then all the other way for the last 10), constant reminders of how many English born play for Wales, then some nice hand shakes, well done’s, and chats at the end. I will concede that emotions were high in that game due to the way we were written off by the media, most pundits and by a lot of Eng fans, including your good self. But even when we went crazy because it was our biggest win for a long time it was still pro-Welsh crazy rather than anti-English crazy.
At the Wal v Fiji game there were stacks of Eng fans in England shirts. Bit of ribbing. Bit of proper chats about the upcoming Aus game. Booing at “Swing Low” (which isn’t abuse imo when it isn’t an English match and some of us do have a real problem with the use of that song by the English). No abuse.
I’ve read and heard plenty of crap about Wales from supposed English rugby fans. All of the sheep sh**** stuff, the “get back down the pit” stuff, the “you’re all funded by our taxes, can’t wait till we get rid of you” stuff, the “your language is s***” stuff, but I tend to assume they’re not actually rugby fans, just footie fans who are lost.
All I can say is that I’d ask you to appreciate that I think the majority of Welsh fans are not into dishing out abuse at rugby matches.
As for Eng being favourite with the bookies for the 6Ns – they were also favourites to win group A. In rugby in Britain the bookies know which side their bread is buttered on.
Here you are Col, from an Englishman who was at HQ for the match..
Andy Jolley ?@ajjolley Sep 28
@bloodandmud I have been to HQ a lot & this was the worst crowd I have seen
I even felt the need to apologise to a Welsh fan sat in front
It’s not just the Welsh who can be idiots, the English aren’t free of them either. You and Enoch are one and the same except Enoch doesn’t try and hide it behind thinly veiled digs.
This is some sort of performance art now Enoch, isn’t it?
This is fascinating
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/rwc-ruck-analysis-aus-v-eng/
(there’s some more explantion of the figures in the comments)
It demonstrates just why Robshaw, even if he’s not playing at 7, should be kept on in the England side
So there is one comment on here that accidently raises the question, but, do we think robshaw would make a good 6 for england? or do we think the number 8 in our pack needs more carrying support that hopefully will be brought by the new generation of back rows?
Yes. He would make a fantastic 6 for England. I have a comment awaiting moderation on here that links to an article demonstrating the mountain of work he put in against Australia
People are too quick to forget his numerous man of the match awards, his excellent tackling and his overall ability – Brighty reference the 30-3 loss to Wales above but its forgotten that Robshaw was about the only England player that day to stand up and be counted.
He had the best stats of all 7s in the last 6 Nations (not for the first time I believe) and has captained teams that have beaten every top team in the world apart from one (and at least managed a draw against them)
He does actually carry and link well – if he did not he would never have made it at Harlequins. And its not just a carrying 6 England need but a carrying front 5. Look at players like Kepu, Retallick, Etzebeth to see how much they carry the ball. The only players in England’s front 5 that do so with any effectiveness or regularity are Launchbury and Youngs.
You don’t throw that kind of player away. Longer term, I think England should be looking to players like Ewers and, hopefully, Burgess but whilst they are being bought along (which should be done in the same way as Cane for NZ), Robshaw gets my vote for 6
PS – not as captain though
For me Robshaw isn’t a) international class and b) not the future.
I agree with an awful lot that others have said.Ignoring comments on individuals any selector/coach with 1/2 a brain knows it is essential to have a balanced back row.Yet from day 1 identikit Wood and Robshaw have been guaranteed places.I’ m convinced he would not use Stefan or any other 7 because he won’t drop either of those 2-inked in no matter what like Barritt.Stu’ greatest failing amongst his many is to select the right players and combinations.
Robshaw selected 7 as captain. Wood selected 6 as line-out struggles without him. That has been the SL formula.
Oh yes and I think Robshaw is an international 6. Like Lydiate but can carry and pass as well.
Meow! I don’t think Robshaw is an international 6 because he can’t tackle like one….
I remember the days when all my non-English supporting friends would take the piss out of Joe Worsley’s selection because ‘all he can do is tackle’
The Welsh contingent amongst them now understand that its not such a bad thing when you can do it as well as either Lydiate or Worsley
All that piss taking stopped after that Worsley/Roberts matchup game. Laughed at the selection before the match, saw how effective it was during the match.
As for Lydiate – his tackling is insane. The amount of times he brought the Fijians down behind the gameline was a key difference in that match. That’s a thought, is “tackles behind the gainline” a stat that is tracked? Sort of like a “metres saved” stat rather than “metres gained”?
Stats … schmats … fullbacks and their “metres” stats always make me laugh.
I’m sure someone will measure ‘tackles behind the gainline’ and if they don’t, they should.
Now if Lydiate could learn to tackles using his arms…
Yes he is. Take a look at the Green and Gold website link above. Sure, numbers aren’t everything but they do provide interesting insights