An enthralling weekend’s rugby with several surprising upsets. We are getting very close to squad announcements for the Autumn Internationals and this was one of the last chances for players to impress.
GOING UP
Chris Robshaw
Perhaps the biggest upset of the weekend, a so-far average looking Harlequins side reminded Maro Itoje what it feels like to actually lose a game, as they bested Premiership and European champions Saracens. The Quins defence was uncompromising (to nil Saracens in a half of rugby is impressive for any side) and the man at the heart of it was Chris Robshaw. Robshaw has certainly enjoyed a renaissance in recent months and showed his worth with an aggressive, industrious display as well as some thundering hits; one on Brad Barritt on the Quins five-metre line was particularly memorable, as he sent the centre flying backwards and dislodged the ball, stopping a likely try. Robshaw seemed everywhere at times and he is guaranteed to start against South Africa for England. I also wouldn’t want to bet against him wearing the Lions six jersey next year. Didn’t expect to be saying that this time last year.
Jamie Roberts
I have been critical of Jamie Roberts in the past, as he hasn’t recently delivered a performance of the kind he made on a weekly basis three or four years ago. However, this was Roberts back at his best; physical and direct, running great lines off his 10 and splitting defensive lines. He was also excellent in defence, his tackle on Lozowski on the 70 minute mark echoed Robshaw’s earlier hit as he smashed the flyhalf and forced a knock-on, stopping another dangerous Saracens attack. Roberts needs to back this performance up regularly if he is to silence the fans calling for a shake-up of the Welsh midfield. Then he may be in with a shot of a third Lions tour.
Danny Cipriani
Cipriani has been excellent for Wasps since the start of the season, leading them to victory in their opening four games for the first time. He just has that bit of maverick about him: his counter attack from the Wasps five metre line that led to a length-of-the-field try was brave to the point of insanity, as he ghosted round the Northampton scrum, gathered his own chip and offloaded while falling forward. But it showed what makes him so dangerous – he instinctively see attacking opportunities other players do not. If he had been playing like this only a few years ago he would be certain to add to his England caps, however he finds himself in the unfortunate position of having Ford and Farrell ahead of him. The former is back to his near best (the game against Tigers aside) and Farrell is the heart of the England backline, whether at 10 or 12. All Cipriani can do is keep playing like this, he is only an injury or slump in form away from getting his chance.
Paddy Jackson
Another flyhalf delivering an all-round brilliant performance was Ulster’s Paddy Jackson. It is fair to say he has always been in Sexton’s shadow from an Ireland point of view, and although it was good to see Sexton back at the weekend, Jackson is unquestionably the form pick. His break half way through the match was attacking rugby at its finest, weaving through five opposition players on his way to the line. Then he dropped it. A lesson in why to hold the ball in two hands kids… However I can forgive him that (in all fairness it was a great cover tackle) and he was excellent otherwise, not least showing his strength to go through two players for the winning try.
GOING DOWN
Mike Brown
This may seem a little harsh given he was part of the Quins side to inflict that surprise victory over Saracens. And Brown was generally good. However, he also did a couple of those maddening, inexplicable bits of play that I thought he had ironed out of his game. Like when he decided to let the ball bounce on in the hopes it would go dead before seeing it ricochet of the corner flag (what were the odds on seeing that two weeks in a row?) and nearly cost his team a try. Alex Goode was also excellent, edging the battle of the 15s. Brown still has a lot to offer and is a great player, but right now I think his opposite number at the weekend deserves a run in the side.
Manu Tuilagi
I really do feel for Manu. Another groin injury and a likely six to eight weeks recovery. It has been discussed in the comments on other articles but I am starting to get the feeling this may be the future for Manu – a player of world class potential let down by a troublesome body. I hope he does not join the other great players forced to retire before their time and instead, when he comes back next time it is the end of his problems. But it is fair to say with each week out injured his immediate international future, and certainly the Lions, gets less and less likely.
By Henry Ker
Photo by: Patrick Khachfe / Onside Images
Interesting to see Brown vs Goode at the weekend, and although Brown was mainly solid and excellent under the high ball those silly errors are schoolboy errors!! Add to that the (much hated) dancing feet of Alex Goode through the Quins defence (if only the rest of the team were playing at his level!!) would not have helped Brown’s cause.
Saying that I still think Jones will pick Brown to start!!
I spotted Alex Goode’s stats in the Prem Rugby press release about top Opta stats:
136 metres made (2nd best of the weekend, behind Jamie Shillcock of Worcester)
7 defenders beaten (2nd behind George North, 8)
3 offloads (2nd behind Byron McGuigan of Sale, 4)
He didn’t feature in the lineouts won, but they are decent stats in a team that lost the game.
Along with Player of the Season last year, you’d think he’d be the front runner for England in the Autumn?
You would think so, but I just don’t think Eddie trusts him? Brown is a good solid player, but doesn’t offer that unpredictability that Goode does. He may not be as dependable as the last line of defence but one on one against most players the full back is going to lose 9 times out of 10.
That one run at the weekend saw him running through gaps he’d created as he was running. Sloppy defence maybe, but that step and check ability can’t be taught it’s natural.
No mention of Wade being on the up. I’m staggered! After that try against Worcester and all the other assists, dinks and breaks so far this season!
Hi Alex, I mentioned Wade last week – trying to avoid talking about the same names every week if I can avoid it!
No Josh van der Flier? Outplayed Tipuric and scored 2 tries.
It will be very interesting at the weekend, Osperys vs Ulster. If Jackson can outplay Bigger he might be in with a big shout of becoming a Lion.
I think Cipriani has more chance of being a Lion than Jackson does. I’d say Jackson is at least number 6 on any Lions flyhalf pecking order list.
….and thats working on the assumption that WG takes 3/4 FH’s with him to NZ. In which case Farrell, Sexton and Biggar/Ford/Cipriani, all injury & form dependant of course. With a black wall of death harrying that 10 channel, I think a stout and hardy FH would fit the bill, in which case Farrell would be my first choice with Sexton on the bench. Mid week would be Biggar & Cips.
I’d be very surprised if he went with 4 10’s considering he went with just 2 in 2013. Ford, Farrell and Sexton all look like the obvious ones to me. If Biggar becomes a Lion I will be amazed. Russell is probably 4h in line, followed by Jackson and then Cips.
Likewise, I do worry though that Gatland will take Biggar; partly due to past performances and to keep moral for when he returns to Wales. On current form, it would be hard to look past Ford and Sexton. Im sure Farrell will come back from injury and pick up where he left off and with his goal kicking, I cant see a place in the squad for Biggar.
Yep. Farrell has to be first choice if fit and firing. Sexton not looking a bit flakey in the last couple of years though, especially after his concussion issues?
I think Jackson has jumped ahead of Russell recently, Russell is obviously a very talented player and I would have had him ahead until the later half of last season when Jackson really grew into his position. Your basing Cipriani’s Lions credentials on his AP form but the difference between what a player does in the AP and what a player does in a test match is massive. If we are to pick 3 fly half’s its a fight for 1 spot between Ford/Cip (if one gets to play for England the other will miss out) Bigger and Jackson but Bigger would be the huge favourite due to him being Welsh.
Jacob
Admittedly I only mostly see rugby that’s on telly, but if you saw the way the 2 (i.e. Ford, Cipriani) played last up in the premiership, surely you’d reverse yr order?
Also from the last yr’s club final v Sarries & v Fr away that yr to last wk when Ford missed a pen in front, threw a ‘miss’ pass to Homer in his own 22 & his only decent punt was a miss cue off the side of his boot from which Rokoduguni ‘accidentally’ scored, is GF really the sort of fly1/2 to confront the AB’s?
And these gaffs can’t all be attributed to a ‘loss of form’ (as I’ve prev heard to excuse same)?
It’s no skin off my nose, but it seems to me that Ford caves in under pressure. His thinking & therefore his option taking, as well as execution, all go to pot.
I don’t expect Cip to play for England again (never know I suppose, although is EJ any diff from Lancs in this respect?), but is he actually less exp, or vastly inferior?
I just don’t get it.
lol Stout and Hardy in the same sentence as Johnny (more broken than a dropped packet of biscuits) sexton
Well I was tempted to initially pen those exact sentiments, but feared for my safety against the Pro12 crew! There was a period where he seemed to spend a lot of time waving his hands around at the ref and laying on the ground crocked, concussions issues not withstanding. That act of gamesmanship he performed will never fade for me.
6th?…are you for real! He had a great performance for Ireland during the summer wheres Cip ( who is a very good fly half dont get me wrong) has got no game time for England under Jones and baring injury is unlikely to in the 6N which rules him out. Its between Sexton,Farrell,Bigger,Russell,Jackson for 2 and at a stretch 3 Lions spots. You’ve got Sexton and Farrell who if fit are certain to travel and then a fight between the other 3. Jackson is up against Bigger on Saturday, a good performance vs Bigger will surely help his cause.
Jackson and Russell aren’t giving me that warm fuzzy feeling against the likes of the AB’s. They may look superb against Zebre and Newport/Gwent. But hey, throw them in anyway. We’ll be lucky to come within 7 points of them, let alone a win.
Guess you didn’t see Jackson vs the Boks, I know the boks are awful right now but to do what he did with his first real chance he had and with all the set backs he has had to go through shows the character he has and thats important. I feel to many people are living in the past when it comes to analysing Jackson as he had a pretty bad start to his Ireland career but over the past 6 months he has come up leaps and bounds and I think its quite unfair to consider him 6th at the moment when Cips has done nothing on the test scene ( I dont doubt he is a great player but you need to show it on the test stage). Jackson also played very well against Glasgow on the weekend scored a great winner of a try and was unlucky not to score what would have been one of the best tries you’ll see ( scroll up and read for yourself). If he puts in another great performance against another one of his big rivals ( Bigger) on Saturday he would seriously have to come into the equation of Lions selection. I think Sexton and Farrell are head and shoulders above the rest but if Jackson isn’t in the running for the 3rd spot then there is something seriously wrong with Gatland.
Ok. Understood. I’ll defer to your knowledge of Irish rugby as mine is purely AP & English based with one eye on the Pro12. There will have to be a serious run of injuries for Jackson to even be considered in the first place. He has the same frame & heft as Ford (another who I think will not fare well in NZ if chosen) and still think we need someone with robustness to withstand the AB’s physicality. I know the Boks bring that to the table, but AB’s appear to be operating at a level way and above that at present.
Ford is a surprisingly decent tackler for his size and given the ABs don’t just rely on brute force, i can’t see him suffering too badly.
Certainly he didn’t seem to have too many issues in the 6 Nations, missing just 3 tackles out of 20 up against the likes of Roberts and Henshaw running down his channel. And against Aus he made 26 tackles and missed 4
The SA games in the autumn will give us a good idea. If he plays and does well against the big Boks then his size is not a reason to ignore him for the Lions.
I’d place him above Russell, Biggar and Jackson
Not sure WG needs to exclude Ford on the grounds of size alone! Sounds overly dramatic!
It’s false logic too! If Ford, probably the best 10 out there at the moment with the way he is playing now (after a 3 test victory down under under the belt to boot) , is just branded as in the “going to struggle” bracket it would be a mistake.
Firstly we don’t KNOW that he’s going to be run over (false prophecy) and secondly he shouldn’t need to be 16 stone as the forwards (if the selection is right) should be able to dominate!
WG will hopefully not pick on what or who he will face but what style of play he aspires to and the individuals to execute it, not the other way around!
Alex. Before Don jumps in here, i’d just say that irrespective of who WG chooses, expecting the Lions forwards to dominate the ABs is asking a bit much. Parity would be great. Slightly edging it would be superb
Size isn’t really the issue here but tackling ability is. There will be no hiding place against the Kiwis and the Lions won’t be able to carry a weak tackler if they want to have any hope of winning.
I think Ford is a good tackler irrespective of his size but if you add his size into the equation, then he’s a very good tackler.
Leftfield bolters for FH – Owen Williams, Gareth Steenson (why no Ireland caps?!) & Alex Lozowski!
Pablito
At risk of being accused of favouritism It all depends how much of the England pack he chooses (minus flankers that is! The England pack is about the only thing the ABs would fear! I Stand with that even with Don
Pablito
Well, presumably that’s what Lancaster thought too.
Pab, the AB’s likely respect opponents, but why should they fear a fwd pack they beat 3 zip last up?
Esp so as the Lions will have nxt to no prep time, face a tough schedule v S Rugger sides & they’re away to the back to back WC Champs who are currently playing well?
I just find yr contentions subjective that’s all. What do you actually base them on?
Yo’re entitl;ed & all that, but I do wonder about Walter Mitty comparisons sometimes.
Don I think you are replying to Alex’s post rather than mine.
I said that if the Lions pack even gains parity with the ABs then it would be a great result – irrespective of how many England players feature
Pablito
I think it was to a prev, diff post & prior to yr latter ‘Lions parity’ one which made sense to me.
Regds
Don
The million pound hypothetical question is how worried would you be with England facing the ABs in two to three months time! (It ain’t happening but I’m posing a hypothetical scenario which a lot of fans would like to see happening in reality right now!) Much more worried would be a sensible answer in a sensible and balanced world!
On a separate note: a Lions pack with most of the England forwards (plus some Welsh flankers scaring the hell out of the opposition) would also be a nice blend! To pre-empt accusations of favouritism IMO such a decision would be fair cop based on recent test results assuming of course that the players in question remain in form and injury free (a big ask I know)
I don’t believe in percentages for each nation or positive discrimination just in the best players irrespective of where they’re from. I’m also not a Corbinista! Surprise surprise there!
I know I’m not Don, but I’d have to say that the team most likely to beat the All Blacks right now is probably their B team, no one else (yes, including England) is even close. For example, look at Coles, who put in an incredible attacking FH performance while wearing 2. No one else has those sort of skills running from 1-23.
I was trying to make a team with as much of an England bias as possible, and I still can’t get past at most 5 of the starting 8 forwards, and I’d probably change more if I wasn’t trying to bias it, to include minimum one of the Grays, Stander, Warburton, etc:
Nel, Hartley, McGrath,
Itoje, Kruis,
Robshaw, Vunipola, Henderson
I might as well follow up my first ever post on the site by saying that if I was to make a World XV, it’d possibly only include 3 NH players anyway, Farrell, Henshaw and Nel.
GKDA
Hmmm, glad you stated it & not me. But interesting poser nonetheless.
Yr pt abt Coles is esp relevant, as a couple of yrs ago he was an ‘unknown’ & an e.g. of the skill set that the Lions will have to confront & deal with.
I’m trying to look at it form a NH pt of view (yep, I am) & it’s going to be tough for the Lions if NZ get parity even nr possession I think.
Anyway, we’ll see.
AlexD
@ the moment Alex, not very.
Mainly because of the way NZ are currently playing & how they’ve PROGRESSED since the last WC, incl incorporating new players pretty seamlessly into their set up. They’ve AB’s already ‘bloodeed’ the likes of Damien McKenzie, Anton Lienert-Brown, lock Patrick Tuipulotu etc.
They’ve upped the tempo in a blanket ‘D’ & are even slicker & quicker in passing than in the prev WC yr.
Watch a bit of the SH Ch’ship, to actually SEE what I mean (I’m assuming from yr comments that you don’t watch it?).
E.g., check out Beauden Barrett who scores TRIES for fun almost every match these days & then compare with whoever the Lions are likely to put up. Do they likewise score tries, or mainly kick ‘immaculately’ for the corner &/or accumulate with the boot?
Look @ the NZ scrum (v Argentina, when they both had 8 v 8 i.e.), l/out & then the br’down.
Are the lions likely to comprehensively out jump Rellick & Whitelock, or grind Moody & Franks @ scrum?
Do the lions have an Ardie Savea who runs through the oppo like a human trashing machine? And he’s not even 1st choice!
Well, they might do, but even the jaundiced Jones & Barnes of the S Times seem to agree that the ABs are widening the gap over all comers.
All ‘ hypothetical’ of course, but I tend to believe the evidence of my own eyes.
Don P
“I think the time for honouring yourself is over…..”
So said Russell Crowe thanks to a great script writer!
The Lions have the better of Savea in North who carries people plus ball on his shoulders for fun! He’s also in hot form right now btw and set up the try of the championship for Northampton the other day. Have you seen it? Do you watch the club rugby over here?
You’ve mentioned Barrett on here about five times to different people! Gets a bit boring (though I actually agree with the basic tenet of what you’re saying BTW just to steal your thunder – he does score some real crackers!)
What he doesn’t do, as I mentioned in my earlier post and you chose to not answer it! Therein I smell a concern and weakness in your armoury! I have a nose for it!
Alas Barrett is not great at ensuring the ball flies between the posts! That is a MAJOR weakness or could be under the right high pressure conditions and it is up to the Lions and England to apply that pressure under the right conditions!!!!!
Jones too is blooding people (check out his latest squad with Sam Jones an interesting one to watch along with Ben Morgan who when fit can equally destroy the opposition in one sitting and I haven’t even started on Nathan Hughes and Te’o (under Jones believe me Morgan will be fit as Mr J is a man who brooks no dissent!)
Jones is an Aussie, I’m British and it’s bloody marvellous! Up the Commonwealth and all that! Should be hearing more of that from you BTW being Kiwi; they’re traditionally more pro the Brits than the Aussies!
Ford and Farrell can do one over people in tandem (perhaps not individually like Barrett but then it’s a team sport isn’t it?)
Nothing you’ve said has spooked me yet Don so it’s extremely unlikely to do so with an England with it’s bite restored!
Deep down I think the one about Barrett’s weak kicking foot spooked you though!
Tell him to get out there and practise! You never know Johnny Wilkinson might be available to give him a master-class!!!
Oh and the Irish and Scot in me also cries for the tartan ta be worn and for the wee fiery spirit ta be resurgent when it comes ta the Lions and making the opposition think again!
What a tradition and it’s all ours boyo!
AlexD
You’re subjective, personal Alex with this ‘ honouring yourself is over’ bizzo & ‘Do you watch the club rugby over here?’ etc stuff.
You appear to simply echo my thoughts back rather than being objective & original. & yr claims are somewhat spurious.
And actually, yes, but where were you when I was @ the Sun Inn R’mond watching Bath recently? Ha, ha.
BTW I was ‘talking’ Ardie Savea, not Julian, so inapprop comparison with North.
Maybe Barrett could improve his kicking @ times, but if Hansen thought it an issue I’d likely have played Cruden… whom he can bring on incidentally. But you need to look @ Barrett’s influence & pts total / game. And as I keep stating, TRIES are usually worth 7!
Until the Lions have done it though, it’s all empty vessel stuff.
Contrast that with the AB’s whom have a recent, concrete & current track record.
What I’m getting @ is that it ain’t gonna be the cake walk you seem to predict, but if it makes you happy to think otherwise, knock yrself out.
Ta, tah.
Yadayadayada……
As I said to someone else on here we can go around in circles on this one for ever if necessary which would probably be very boring for everyone else including ourselves. As Henry I think states repeatedly….we’re all entitled to our opinions! None of us are on the pitch and therefore cannot influence it…..
We’ll have to let them get on with it…..
The most balanced, neutral, objective, reasonable and articulate comment today!
Tarrah indeed !
AlexD
Why? As said afore, the AB’s likely respect opponents, but why would they fear anyone with their record, which includes a 3 zip series last up v England (still more or less the same team BTW), who also fell over in the last WC!?
And with all respect, the 6N ain’t the SH & as for Oz? Well they ain’t NZ @ present. Oz have had selection issues (some of their own making perhaps?) & have gone backwards in their play (selection, injuries e.g. Gitto, Beale), but England nevertheless shipped 40 in their last test.
Doesn’t any of this register with or concern you?
You’re entitled to yr opinion of course, but wouldn’t you have more cred if you came up with some concrete reasons for yr contention about the AB’s fearing ‘The England pack’. Like 1, 2, 3 etc.
Just doesn’t add up for me.
In short Don because things are changing FAST within the England set up.
Jones has his eye on the WC. He’s in it for the long term and he has a plan. Bringing in ‘mercenaries’ as Y Draig puts it is a small part of that programme. We’re just catching up now in 2016 with a Kiwi poaching policy begun right after the very first WC in 1987! So if we’re truthful – a big ask I know – The ABs can be beaten by either the Lions or England with……
1. A dominant pack (clearly possible when it is just England though it doesn’t have to be any less so with The Lions – it depends how daring WG is prepared to be in his selection)
2. The adoption of an ‘in your face’ style of play that England is very good at (it probably comes from being on the receiving end of anti-English bigoted comments for which a big thank you is due from the English rugby team for their having been provided hook line and sinker with the very fire needed to counter such crap)
3. The ABs are only human and they’re crackable – if anyone can find their weaknesses I’d put my money on Jones!!!
4. Jones is fast A. locating the players and B. improving their skills and team tactics
5. He has the time to hone the England attack so team play is less predictable (ref England only here obviously)
6. Because England has previous with NZ (victories that is in case you were wondering). They are the only N hemisphere nation bar France to have done so!
7. Now that the mathematical listing is becoming boring and I think everyone can do it….. because England have less and less fear nowadays. It’s a word you seem to be keen on and IMO by the time Jones has finished there will be absolutely NONE! That’s assumjng that there’s any there now to get rid of! (ie. don’t over-estimate your own team because the more you do the more it plays into English hands)
8. The word RESPECT is a non entity. No one has any idea of its real meaning nowadays let alone uses it in the real manner. It’s something earned not given to be precise.
9. Krutoje is to be feared and they will get better
10. BV could be the world’s best 8
11. Ford and Farrell are a combination to be worried about. Farrell will kick everything in sight a la Wilkinson which is where Bauden Barrett has a weakness I’m sorry to say. He misses a lot. Can he improve by the WC? We’ll wait and see!
12. The older heads are completely reinvigorated (Ref England and Lions) Robshaw and Haskell especially!
13. Increasing strength in depth that matches ABs E.g. Ben Morgan for Clifford in the squad (not a bad one)
14. Because of the very fact they’re different teams. England won’t play into the ABs hands like Wales did. You can be sure of that!
AlexD
I know this a waste of time Alex, as your above contentions seem more akin to a tirade from Tyson Fury. You seem incapable of objectivity.
H’ever, just to educate yrself & enable you to differentiate between 1 point of fact & fiction, check out the following web site in respect of yr rant about ‘Kiwi poaching policy’.
Besides which you don’t name a single 1 of the ‘poached’! And of course you don’t state what rules have been broken?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10332552
Jones of the S Times has already visited this yesterday’s chip paper piffle & he fell over just as you have.
Ironic that you have a Kiwi captain, a couple of other antipodeans in yr squad & an Oz coach innit?!
Oh dear that was far more of a tirade than mine!
Anyway the piffling defence made in that article is naturally
A. Written by a fellow national of yours!
B. It’s logic and balance are skewed!
I’ll explain why:
Whatever this journo’s name is, he is not comparing like with like! A measure of scale and proportionality are required here!
His own words are “10 Polynesians in a squad”. Well by most rational people’s’s estimation that’s a lot out of 35 or even 40 players! At most (please excuse my maths it’s a bit crap) that comes to a THIRD of a squad.
I think he is even referring to a squad of many years ago and the percentage has risen since not gone down!!!!!!!!
I am unfortunately for you and your argument old enough to recall the England win against NZ at Twickenham in 92 i think it was! There were loads of Polynesians in the squad and match day team. One of the buggars (their no 8)
intentionally fractured Kyran Bracken’s ankle by blatantly stepping on it! What an amazing memory I’ve got! Bracken stayed on the pitch and played through it, helping to win the game.
Your journo mate’s argument is that england teams of all sports possess the odd immigrant! (He names cricket and boxing and football)
Dooooughhhhh they’re the odd one at any one time in any one team.
I’ll give your journo mate a better example; just because I’m a nice guy and I pity his floundering around for weak examples just to strengthen his case. Athletics would have been a better example!
However, the fact remains he didn’t!
What there isn’t is a national team with up to a third of a particular ethnic minority (talking national sports here – cricket, football or their poorer relative Rugby Union). I’m using my words carefully here because not even the England FootBall team falls into your journo’s simplistic formula!
I will explain why:
Most of the ‘black’ players are mixed race (i.e they have one white parent!!!!) Some haven’t even visited Nigeria or Jamaica or wherever!
So back to the drawing board on that one chum!
Statistics are not your journo’s forte! He may be good at writing but he can’t have good eyesight (required for counting and identifying immigrant players irrespective of colour) or he never got a maths qualification!
Toodledoo!
ALEXD
Told you it was a waste of time, but I couldn’t resist it.
You’re stating utter, meandering tosh & the ‘journo’ is not mine. He just states facts which you blindly ignore which leads me to ? yr state of mental health (hence ref to T. Fury)
The 10 polynesians you mention for example, remain un-named by you. If you do ‘name’ them, then it can be checked where they were born (try Wikipedia if it helps as a quick & easy ref). Then surely even you can can (or maybe not in yr case?) tell whether your contentions have ANY substance whatsoever!
Congratulations!!
You’ be stepped over the mark of acceptability and decency!
Accusations of mental ill health cross the line as do racism.
A healthy bit of batter aside; you have been judged and found wanting on a public forum!
(You will find nothing offensive in any of my remarks on here – plain speak with lashings of irony for sure but it takes discernment to use it and not over step the mark)
Ref your last remarks:
1. You clearly believe everything you read in the paper ad verbatim! Gospel!
Try and be a little more discerning!
2. “Ten polynesians” were the words of your own journo whose article you lamely used in your defence. The quote features in paragraph 8 or 9!
My advice: Try reading something properly before you use it (copy and paste style) to reinforce an argument when it might contain the very seeds to undermine the very thing you are trying to disprove!
I laughed when I read it!
The “ten Polynesians…” quote that is!
3. I didn’t mention Tyson Fury! Nor is he an immigrant! (the subject matter of our debate)
But yes he happens to be a British World heavyweight boxer! Your point….?
4. Look up the 1992 visiting AB team that lost at Twickenham for names if you are desperate for them? As I said b4 this Polynesian no 8 fractured Kyran Bracken’s ankle.
Think before coming on here and making a fool of yourself like the infamous one a month ago when you displayed anti-English xenophobic remarks! Yes they can and do exist!
Alex Dear Boy,
I ? yr mental health because you make an unsubstantiated accusation about NZ’s ‘poaching’, esp in light of England’s ‘poached’.
If you name the horde of ‘poached Islanders’ (or ’10 Polynesians’), then you have a chance of producing evidence (i.e. as to where they were BORN, or @ what age they emigrated!) to substantiate yr claim.
Until then, as you produce NOT a single name (are you afraid you’ll be found out?), you do seem somewhat unbalanced (as per the T. Fury ref. Do you know each other?) in yr (spurious) claim.
If you’d actually read the article properly it states that (@ that time, of the ’10 Polynesians’, 5 were NZ born, 5 immigrated as kids & ‘Sivivatu arrived when he was 17 to attend College’.
It also states that Auckland that the biggest ‘Poly’ city in the world, so naturally, if people of this extraction are good enough, some will make AB’s.
The current AB 1st team BTW is comprised mainly of Pakehas, Jerome Kaino apart, who Immigrated with his family @ the age of 4! , the rest are NZ born.
Also as you’ve ignored the irony of having an Oz coach, a Kiwi captain & 3 other Antipodeans in yr team (i.e. Jones, Hartley, Vunipola x2 & Tuilangi, to actually NAME a few), renders the term ‘pot calling the kettle black’, as loud as Concorde landing on my eardrums!
Others ‘poached’ by England incl, Freshwater, Van Gisbergen, Flutey, Vainacolo, Horak, Catt, Stevens, Fourie, Botha & they’re just a few of the top of my head. The 1st ‘poachee’ BTW was a Saffa, way back in c.1935 (I think), called Thomson.
As for ‘A healthy bit of batter aside; you have been judged and found wanting on a public forum!’, I presume you mean banter, but in any case this all is just yr opinion, so you can ‘speak’, only for yrself.
And I don’t believe EVERYTHING I read! For example, I don’t believe ANYTHING I read pertaining to you!
AlexD
Didn’t quite finish due to time…, but to respond to 4 in yr missive above, what is yr point here of bringing up ‘Polynesians’, incl the ‘no 8 (who) fractured Kyran Bracken’s ankle’ (Jamie Joseph BTW)? I mention them because mentioned them earlier & in response to yr ‘poaching’ claim.
Do you mention their ethnicity because of racism then? What did it matter whether the ankle stomper was Pakeha or Polynesian? Why do you distinguish?
As for, ‘when you displayed anti-English xenophobic remarks! Yes they can and do exist!’, comment, this is laughable. They’re not anti-English comments Alex (& again they’re too general & so specific rebuttal is therefore impossible. Be clear for credibility’s sake nxt time), they’re anti YOUR subjectivity & unsubstantiated opinions abt the Lions with a mainly English pack, ‘frightening’ (but then I expect you woke up.) the AB’s!
Yeah right! Did you watch last Sat? 9 TRIES, away from home & as far as I could tell I didn’t see a ‘frightened’ or retreating NZ pack, did you?
No response nec, as you seem to have chucked the towel in like one T. Fury.
That’s more or less what I said in the first place minus the Welsh back row. That makes five if my maths is up to the job!
As I said, that was me trying to include as many English players as possible, and I couldn’t get more than 5. I’d be pretty comfortable to drop 3 of them, I feel that you could easily make a starting pack with the only English players being Hartley and Itoje, without any drop in quality.
IMO that’s being optimistic!(could be wrong) I think BV is the best home nations 8 (squeezing out Faletau on the grounds of consistency – Faletau fades in and out of games). Krutoje is pretty irreplaceable too! Remember that Haskell is not around merely because of injury. He’d be in most sane selectors notepads right now were he healthy. As I said b4 I’m not a quota system believer when it comes to selection (look at South Africa’s attempts to blacken their team) It smacks of positive discrimination, Corbynism and the ‘politics of niceness’ over here (the road to ruin)
If it took a largely England pack……so what! It’s within the rules and the result is all that counts!
Alex, I honestly can’t see how you’d form some of those viewpoints? Particularly about the English forwards? The All Black pack is better than the English one, both as a unit and man for man. I wouldn’t say BV is even in the top 3 for his position worldwide. While I agree that positive discrimination can’t help the team, my actual Lion’s pack would only have 3 English players.
Think that’s pretty harsh (3 English forwards) but at the end of the day this is all opinion and none of it fact (though we might like it to be with our inflated opinions)
As a unit I think they’re a match and could even edge it. England certainly have time on their side.
@AlexD could you please tone down a few of your posts? Bordering on offensive in some cases (e.g. references to SA policy).
As an England fan, I would dearly love for the English pack to be as dominant as you suggest. However, the facts really don’t support this. 9 from 9 is a great start for Jones but nothing in any of those performances suggests that England have achieved parity with the AB yet (some of those 6N games were pretty close). If we manage a clean sweep in the AI with convincing home wins over all, then we’ll be closer to earning the title of challengers to the AB, but no more.
As for the Lions, there is no doubt that a resurgent England is good for their chances. But there is still the challenge of finding the best combination to beat the ABs – and England do not have all the answers. I’d suggest only 3 England players are shoe-be for the starting pack: BV, Itoje, and Mako.
BV is not a shoe-in with Faletau prowling but then you ignored Hartley so still 3
Then again everyone keep talking about the lions like there will only be 15 players selected its a 23 man game these days. England should have at least 6 forwards in the 23 on current form. 3 front row 2 second row and a backrow