47 thoughts on “Rate the match: England 22 v New Zealand 30

  1. Much better competitive match with two teams actually playing well and not littered with errors. Much better from England, but still looked tactically inept at times with the only try again coming from a scrappy error.

  2. Plenty of heart but not enough brain from England. At a perhaps undeserved 22-20, the half backs, and especially Farrell, should have calmed the game and kept England in NZ territory. Instead poor kicking and choices gave chances to the Blacks which they took. When back in the lead, NZ didn’t make the same mistake. What difference might Johnny have made? Farrell has lots of promise; that’s the area he needs to work on.

  3. 10/10 for the pack. Work to do in the backs. Brown 12t and Farrell played well but we never looked like scoring a try in the backs.

    Thought Tom Youngs cost us this game coughing up possession in the lineout and the loose. The 10 pts that won the game for nz came from ty lineouts.

  4. Exactly right from previous poster. Tom Youngs should be nowhere near the EPS. He’s rubbish at scrummaging and throwing in. He’s reported as refusing to hook for the ball yet he’s so supposedly a hooker. I was at the game and he was truly abysmal. Also Tomkins was rubbish yet again. Ref was beyond biased.

    The pack (pre Young’s) annihilated NZ. We just need to improve the backs. Perhaps a side with Tuilagi, Croft, Wade and Yarde would fare differently

    1. Don’t think he’s a poor scrummager at all and certainly at Leicester he’s taken to the new scrummaging laws reasonably well. He did not say that he wouldn’t hook the ball, he merely raised concerns that a lot of players who have learned to scrummgae in more recent years would struggle more as they wouldn’t be stable to lift their boot. He’s managing it fine though.

      My only concern over Youngs to be honest is his throwing, but to be honest, today I thought (except one throw) he was putting the ball in the right place but the jumpers weren’t making it. Don’t know whether that’s a calling issue or a throwing issue.

      1. He doesn’t hook Wookie. In the prem he relies on Tiger dominance to walk it over. He won’t get that at test level.

        Dickson was having to dig the ball out from the second row at scrum time. In other matches this series the flankers have had to keep the ball in the scrum as Young fails to hook.

        And if the lineout problems weren’t to do with Youngs why did it break down when he came on?

        Added to that he even turned it over in the loose!

        1. To be honest, I’m not going to say that his lineout isn’t a concern, it is all of a sudden, even though he’s performed well in the Premiership and outshone Hartley in the derby, I’d say he’s second best at the minute. As I say, I merely observed that the throws seemed to go to the right spot and the jumpers weren’t making it. whether that was disruption from the Kiwis because they saw an opportunity to counter the throw I don’t know

          However, Youngs lost two lineouts (it may have been 3, but I thnk I remember one of Hartley’s going awry) and conceded one turnover. To blame him for the loss as a lot are is a bit excessive. The problem that caused the loss is the same as it has been for England for sometime. Stagnant ball at the rucks and a ridiculously simple backline attack that has no penetration

          1. But Wookie we had that problem throughout the game and yet we still managed to fight back and score 19 points to the ABs 3 to lead 22-20.

            Then Youngs comes on and we lose 3 lineouts in a row, without I believe having lost one previously). Savea’s try came off the back of one of the lost lineouts.

            You just cannot lose set-pieces like that and expect to beat New Zealand.

            No its not entirely Young’s fault, as you say the backs were rubbish and our bench offered little apart from Morgan. But at the same time, we can’t ignore it either.

            Time for Youngs to be dropped until he sorts out his throwing, its too much of a liability.

  5. A good game and a solid showing from England. Defense was way to slow out the blocks and it cost us massively but to see us come back like we did, take the game by the scruff of the neck and edge the lead was impressive and inspirational. Errors (mainly from Youngs) cost us in the last 20 though and the better side rightfully won.
    To make the All Blacks work that hard is no mean feat, forwards should be very proud with their performance, because of them we were the better side for the middle 40. We just couldn’t match their intensity in the opening and closing 20.
    Who knows, with Tuilagi, some established wingers and with a better ref, the result could have been different. England should have been awarded at least two scrum penalties, the amount of wheeling and collapsing Woodcock got away with was atrocious.

    What on earth happened to Youngs? He was amazing for the Lions…

  6. It’s never acceptable losing home games, so pretty disappointed. The 2nd Irish game in nz in 2012, France last week, SA games and last year all showed this nz team is very mortal, albeit only one of those games leading to a win.

    A win was out there again today. Pack were supreme, better than nz, and lets hope with a tuilagi, wade or yarde in we won’t lose these close fixtures in the future.

  7. Also first hooper and now McCaw have come and not run riot at the breakdown, so all the cliche churning callers for ‘out and out 7s/scrapers/jackals’ or whatever is the fashionable term have been silenced

  8. Outstanding performance from England. May as well have won that one. Will take huge confidence into future encounters against NZ knowing that their pack are superior as an 8 working together.

    Their lack of fluency in midfield is to be expected, what with 36 and Tomkins having around 10 caps between them. 36 looked an awful lot better in terms of coping with the rough and tumble of a test match, both defensively and in terms of belief.

    Eng looked the most likely until Hartley went off. Loss of possession from l/out killed their approach and they are not built to play from in their own half, hence NZ seeming to be on top for the final exchanges.

    2 world class offloads beat Eng.

  9. Agree with the posts re youngs, thought we lost momentum when he came on. Tomkin’s was anonymous again and Farrell kicking from hand was poor. As a team though I think england can take a lot of positives from this game- lawes very good again and great impact from Morgan. the whole pack really went well, just need to sort the creativity in the back line before 6N

  10. Good game full of attractive running rugby. Thought England were going to steal it once they managed to edge in front. Just a few points:

    Robshaw was an immense workhorse throughout the whole game, and I must say, I was proud to have him representing England as the captain. The never say die, dogged determination was admirable and inspiring, which seemed to filter through the entire pack. An England side without him doesn’t look half as good.

    When Farrell gets riled up he plays 10 times better. In fact You could tell the whole team just BELIEVED they could outplay and beat the All Blacks by simply just attacking and playing without fear. Farrell in particular was thriving off getting in Crudens face.

    We lost the game by getting in front, but then not staying calm and dropping the pace of the game in order to play it smart. Its a shame, but a lesson learned hopefully.

    Lastly, what amazing things England can achieve spurred on by a Twickenham crowd 100% behind them. No negativity, and belief that our team is good enough to beat the world’s best. I think that was a major catalyst in today’s performance.

  11. Extremely proud to be an Englishman. Well played lads! Staying in contention with this All Black side was no mean feat.

    Lawes and Launch look extremely promising in the engine room.

    I have always been a Tom Youngs fan. However, unless and until he sorts out his throw ins, we will continue to lose possession at lineouts. In the meantime, Rob Webber is the safe option.

    This side with corbisiero back at lh, ksevic at 7, Manu at 13, yarde at 14 and burns and eastmond on the bench instead of flood and Goode, would have won imho

  12. Great match. Eng did fantastically well. With few key players fit can beat NZ, or be very very close. Can’t blame TY. Eng pack knackered and second to ball in second half of second half as tiring. No desire to single individuals as every chap gave his all but think pointed out elsewhere there are better players injured currently. Caveat not sure if NZ similar but don’t believe so.

  13. So close…wish we’d started the way we played later. From 17 mins we outscored them 19 to 13

    Youngs made a massive difference unfortunately. We went from a line out that was solid to one that gave away possession three times on the trot. Not acceptable and needs to be replaced until gets over his yips.

    Mike Brown and Robshaw were outstanding once again and I hope those calling for their replacement before this series now understand what they bring to the team

    All in all a very good performance and it took a moment of magic from Nonu to finish us. I can be reasonably happy with that

    1. Robshaw definitely, he’s part of a trio that is working exceptionally well together. We need to see more of Brown as an attacking force, picking lines and offering a running option off 10 or 12. All his good work is in his own half (it has been very good work), but it’s still 21 caps and no tries.

      1. Noticed Brown isn’t really one for picking lines so much. Doesn’t have the penetrative running game of Foden. I feel for Quins he’s most effective in the red zone, 5 to 10 m out. He’s deceptively powerful and often wins 1 on 1’s with other backs to get over or offload for others. Should be someone we look for in those situations, as NZ clearly know where to go at that moment.

        1. Agree with that, he is pretty good on the crash close to the line and can get the ball away. I just see why he can’t be used as a strike runner and hit the line at pace. The AB front row made more clean breaks than the entire England team.

          1. Patch is correct. Brown is pretty deadly for Quins from the 22 inwards – either scoring himself or busting holes for others to take advantage of.

            England don’t seem to want to play him that way – so to me his lack of tries is no fault of his own (after all he has been amongst the Premiership’s top 10 try scorers almost every year since he started playing regularly).

            With Farrell at fly-half and Tomkins at 13 I really cannot see many tries being scored by anyone in the backs

            1. Probably the one major area Eng. need to work on. Where they go in the 22.

              NZ seem to think, let’s get some quickball and give it to Nonu, then look for Dagg off the resultant phases.

              When Tuilagi is playing Eng. do look to him, but maybe need to think about Brown or Foden who is also good close to the line

  14. Great game, really exciting.

    England showed a togetherness and moral that impressed, I thought they showed a lot of bottle.

    England seem to be developing a pack that might scare people, even the forwards coming on looked good Parling and Morgan had positive impacts although I was less impressed with Youngs. I you think of Corbs and Maco England seem to be developing some depth.


    we should not get carried away, We lost.
    twice the AB showed handling skills that we don`t possess and twice they scored tries. Ried and Nanu offloads showed the difference in class between the teams. It is sad to say but Lancaster has done great things since coming in but the backline looks as clueless as it did when he started. We still have no better ideas who is to play in the midfield, Farrell still can`t run the line a this level. England will not win the world cup with this team.

  15. England proved that what France showed the rest of the world last week is definitely true – if you can physically harass the Kiwi’s for an entire match you can take it to them. As someone else here has said, what’s left then is the difference in classy backs, but even that was a close difference.

    Some caution deserved though. England played like this last year and didn’t kick on, even when the injured players came back. Is this getting to be the only team that England can get up against? As a Welshman my tongue is a little bit in cheek when saying that… I do also remember Wal getting extremely close to ABs around our 05 Slam period. 2 points and 1 point matches. Then back to normal. As is always said to me when Wales narrowly lose to SH opposition – it’s still a loses and at home. All of us NH sides need to start taking these periods of dominance in matches and turning then into wins.

    The Launchbury try was fortunate but that’s the sort of things that happen in a match when you apply pressure so it was good to see it rewarded. I thought Farrell again went too far with his post tackle petulant shoves. I don’t see any link between that and genuine aggression.

  16. Awesome effort by the pack. Love the backrow balance now, the collective workrate combined with ability to get over the gainline is excellent. Second row pairing is looking fantastic, Lawes lineout work has really come on, excellent at disrupting opposition throw. Front row gave them a much harder workout in the scrum than I expected, very impressed with Marler.

    Morgan aside most of the bench looked like they had 50 quid on New Zealand, which was disappointing. With a familiar Youngs/Parling axis there shouldn’t be any excuses for not winning our own ball. Hartley looked to be firing it in, Youngs looked to be lobbing it in, has to work on that otherwise I would rather have Webber on the bench.

    To take the ABs apart upfront for large parts of the game and lose is a worry though. We aren’t going to get many games against the big 3 where the pack delivers like that, sadly we still have a backline that is nothing without Tuilagi.

  17. I thought 12trees had a pretty good game and may finally be the answer to the no12 slot that has troubled us for so long.With Corbs back Manu at 13 and Yarde+ Wade on the wings we have the makings to really challenge SH in the world cup. Lancaster he is only halfway through his preparation so we can look forward with reasonable confidence and I will continue to back him

  18. England were good, but not good enough. Some good work from the pack, but some backs seem to be picked because of their press releases from their agents. Limited success in the centres again and a lack of creativity. Also don’t hope that the return of Manu Tuilagi will solve the problem, although it should make things better. Creativity is what is missing from the English game from 9 – 15, just having one who can punch holes is not a solution as all should be threats in an ideal world (AB’s live in that world). Yes there can always be a shock win, but only teams that are consistent win world cups as England were prior to 2003 and all the other winners have been at the top of the IRB rankings. England are in 3rd now, but are they really that close to the class of the AB’s? Look at the ranking points!

    However a good contest and I think that 7/10 is a conservative rating, but I have seen much better matches.

    All looking good for the six Nations with both France and Wales being the other realistic challengers for the title this year. My money probably on Wales as they have the all the blues at home whereas England have them away which may give Wales a points advantage in the end. With the French who can predict anything!

  19. I thought that ABs would win by two scores and hoped for a good England performance. 2 out of 2 although was hoping to be wrong on the first! After 10 minutes thought I was going to be very wrong!

    Firstly would just say that ABs are class. The skill their players possess was amazing and ultimately the difference in the game. They were the better team.

    What have we learnt from the AIs?

    We have a pack to compete with anyone but we have a backline that has no creativity.

    36 can play international rugby, but everyone can have bad games, particularly when a novice at this level. SL has proved consistency of selection is important when selecting. However the Tomkins experiment should be binned. Would like to see Eastmond given a chance in 6 nations. Also Wade and Yarde. There might be some growing pains but we have to see if they can play.

    On the same vein, we know Youngs T can play but he had a poor game. He needs to sort out his throwing. He can do it and he will come back, so we don’t need to ditch him, just let him work out his problem.

    Aside from the offloading the other issue that set the ABs apart was in their thinking. Cool heads under pressure and knowing what needed to be done when. This comes about largely due to experience. The difference in caps was a major factor, so I can therefore forgive losing yesterday as we will get better in this department with time. It was what set our RWC winning team apart.

    Reaction to this game has also confirmed my view that NZ has some of the whingiest fans in the world. Have seen loads of comments on other blogs blaming the ref for the game being close. Class!

    1. Whilst i hate seeing eng lose at least this result won’t paper over the cracks in our backline. Surely SL has to change things.

      Whilst I agree in some respects re T Youngs, the warning signs have been there the whole series. Sometimes SL can be a little to robotic in his methods when a bit of intuition us needed.

      Finally Eng need to play at this level consistently. If we do we won’t see the kind of drubbing we saw in Cardiff (not saying we would necessarily win before I attract Brighty’s ire). However if we are to play at that pace we need to more work on our fitness. Some of the players looked dead on their feet in the last 10.

  20. A great game for the spectator. It was thrilling to watch.
    I like Dickinson at SH the service seems quicker. The forwards did a great job and the substitutions made in the front 8 didn’t affect the eng game. The issue seemed to be that wev

  21. Sorry meant to say that we looked panicked when we did get the ball in a bit of space. I try a coach running onto the ball/taking it at speed etc I didn’t see a whole lot of clips of English centres doing that .

  22. I don’t support England any more, since they are not shown on terrestrial TV. Highlights programs are useless.

    Come on Wales – I’m supporting you instead!

  23. Farrell is a warrior who has great defence and is the kind of guy who would give absolutely everything to the cause. He is the kind of guy I imagine Lancaster would’ve loved in his first year in charge when there was a ‘siege mentality’. However his skillset with the ball in hand is just not up to the standard required. With front foot ball which England have had for a lot in this Autumn, Farrell still fails to take the ball into the line and put real pace on the ball. Watching Ford for Bath right now and his timing and composure on the ball is exquisite, and whilst his goal kicking isn’t as good as OF, his tactical kicking is miles better. His defence is also good, better than Burns.

    I would have Ford in the 6N EPS instead of Burns and see how he goes in training and then decide if he is worth game time.

  24. A typical falling short result really. The pack went well at times but the backline is a fluid a tub of peanut butter.

    English rugby needs to move on beyond the ‘big pack/no skills needed mentality’.

    After all look what happened in Cardiff! The scrum totally failed to match the power Wales possessed and another Grand Slam all went pear-shaped again.

    Look how New Zealand have moved on from their old forward dominated approach- the speed of thought and the execution of skills from all players 1-15.

    Fitness too is an issue-players tailed off in the last 10-15 mins.

    Compare the frames of both packs-Ben Morgan and Mako Vunipola look like lard-arsed pie eaters compared to Reid! And did it show!

  25. A typical falling short result really. The pack went well at times but the backline is a fluid a tub of peanut butter.

    English rugby needs to move on beyond the ‘big pack/no skills needed mentality’.

    After all look what happened in Cardiff! The scrum totally failed to match the power Wales possessed and another Grand Slam all went pear-shaped again.

    Look how New Zealand have moved on from their old forward dominated approach- the speed of thought and the execution of skills from all players 1-15.

    Fitness too is an issue-players tailed off in the last 10-15 mins.

    Compare the frames of both packs-Ben Morgan and Mako Vunipola look like lard-arsed pie eaters compared to Reid! And did it show!

  26. england are shit.
    whole back line -shit
    robshaw average at best.
    replace tom wood also was anonymus whole game.
    tom youngs should just stop playing rugby.

    every allblack 1-15 outclassed there opposite number.

    also get rid of SL he is pish

  27. Glad we’ve had some insightful analysis in some of these recent posts. Not really any point trying to answer them.

  28. I think it’s fair to say England are in contention to win the next WC. France have a chance and Wales can’t be written off. Scotland and Ireland are a pitiful joke, As an Ireland fan, I think Joe Schmidt might regret managing those monkeys. They’re heads are still in the sand, and the vastly hyper-over-rated O’Driscoll needs to retire. Great player but was never truly world class. Ireland are a 2nd. tier side and always will be, the way things are continuing.

  29. Some fascinating comments on here. Some people seem to have stumbled upon this site instead on YouTube, which is a shame.

    Twas a good game, and I think that New Zealand will be pleased with the way they closed the game out, especially after they let such a lead slip away, and for a time, were clearly under pressure. That though is the mark of a classy team, which they clearly are, and that composure in the last 15/20 was what eventually won them the game.

    The first NZ try, was annoying as it was simply dozy defending, but the second and third were simply (literally “simple”) excellent individual skills, and decision making.

    Not a game that Tom Youngs will want to remember I suspect, and Joel Tomkins had a tough day. Having said that about Mr Tomkins, from memory it was only the once that Nonu managed to find some space, and I am not sure Ben Smith was given much room to manoeuvre either, so I rather think he did the boring stuff pretty well.

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